Garuda Crash last March - News report
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Rob - 22 Oct 2007 09:50 GMT http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/22/2066577.htm
The final report on the crash of a Garuda plane in Indonesia earlier this year has delivered scathing criticism of the pilots and airline regulators.
Five Australians were among the 21 people killed when Garuda flight 200 crash-landed in March.
The final report on the crash has strongly condemned the pilot in charge for flying too fast for the plane's wing-flaps to be operated properly.
It says the pilot in charge of Garuda flight 200 did not follow company procedures and make a stabilised approach to the runway in Yogyakarta on the day of the accident.
He was also criticised for not aborting the landing and going around when alerts sounded 15 times, as well as the copilot screaming to the chief pilot to go around when the aircraft first bounced off the runway.
The copilot was also criticised for not taking control of the aircraft when it was clear the landing conditions were unsafe.
The report also finds the copilot received no simulated training in taking over control of the plane from the chief pilot to execute a go-around when conditions were unsafe.
Indonesia's Director General of Civil Aviation was also criticised for not identifying deficiencies in the pilot's training.
Rescue and firefighting services at Yogyakarta Airport are also criticised in the report for not being able to access the crash site and not having the appropriate fire suppressant when they got there.
The delay in extinguishing the fire and the lack of appropriate fire suppressant agents may have significantly reduced the passengers' chances of surviving the crash, the report says.
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Are there any other official sources?
Sylvia Else - 22 Oct 2007 09:53 GMT > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/22/2066577.htm > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Are there any other official sources? The official report is available
http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/Final%20report%20PK-GZC%20Release.pdf
however, it seems that everyone and his dog is trying to download it at the moment.
Sylvia.
GB - 22 Oct 2007 13:31 GMT [...]
> taking over control of the plane from the chief pilot to execute a Journalistic idiocy right there.
> Are there any other official sources? lord knows, we need a better source!
GB
 Signature "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)
John Ewing - 22 Oct 2007 22:45 GMT > [...] >> taking over control of the plane from the chief pilot to execute a > > Journalistic idiocy right there. Sometimes wonder at the obsesssion to nick-pick every news item not written by an aviation expert. I would suggest that the general public would not have be mislead by using "chief pilot" instead of "pilot in command". Even aviation experts would have understood what was meant without feeling the need to demean the author. Now check every word I've written - you'll probably find at least one spilling error :)
Cheers, John
GB - 22 Oct 2007 22:52 GMT > Even aviation experts would > have understood what was meant without feeling the need to demean the > author. Now check every word I've written - you'll probably find at > least one spilling error :) It was written by a journaliar. I was placed on this planet to demean journaliars! As two you're own work, I have run my spilling chequer over it and it looks grate. :-)
GB
 Signature "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)
Ned - 23 Oct 2007 16:44 GMT >> Even aviation experts would >> have understood what was meant without feeling the need to demean the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It was written by a journaliar. I was placed on this planet to > demean journaliars! One word - puerile!
Yagu - 24 Oct 2007 09:36 GMT GB, the report , and I'm sure you have read it, says amongst other things, an I quote "
'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
So, in this case, the ABC report was spot on in their quote. I am by no means a defender nor a fan of all things ABC, but in this case, I feel they need to be congratulated on excellent reporting.
Agree GB?
Cheers, Yagu Mac
> [...] >> taking over control of the plane from the chief pilot to execute a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > GB Rob Ford - 24 Oct 2007 12:14 GMT > 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the > aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...." > > So, in this case, the ABC report was spot on in their quote. > I am by no means a defender nor a fan of all things ABC, but in this case, I > feel they need to be congratulated on excellent reporting. "... as well as the copilot screaming to the chief pilot to go around when the aircraft first bounced off the runway."
Perhaps a little dramatic journaliar licence in this sentence Yagu :) Does anybody know if the voice recorder data is available for download?
I personally can't imagine what drugs the Captain was on that caused him to continue such an unstable approach. I laugh when I hear reports (mainly from the PIC's legal team) that the pilot should be commended for saving as many lives as he did. It's akin to *intentionally* shooting somebody in the head and then praising them when the victim doesn't die!
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Pits - 24 Oct 2007 12:58 GMT > > 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the > > aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...." [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > Posted atwww.Usenet.com.au G'Day Mr Ford. moving on from the Journo Comments and onto my quick reading of the report.
Bloody heck !! It is a miracle that this prang did not total everyone. IMO
Now what lessons can *WE* all learn from this spectacularly awful and some what curious event ? Especially the bug smashers who are or may be on here. One thing that did strike me as odd was the Co-pilots Total hours and then hours on type (if I read it correctly) I will have a more detailed read once I get a chance to print it all out.
P
RT - 24 Oct 2007 13:28 GMT "Pits" <spamlister@gmail.com> wrote in message
> One thing that did strike me as odd was the Co-pilots Total hours and > then hours on type (if I read it correctly) I will have a more > detailed read once I get a chance to print it all out. I'm on dial-up so won't be reading/printing it. However, if the co-pilot's total hours are close to the hours on type, then you have an example of the latest version of asian airline pilot training, as described to me last Sunday by an instructor who is in that system. IOW the ab-initio candidate is given the bare minimum of hands-on, plus a big chunk of simulator and is then posted as a co-pilot on the airline aircraft type to gain further experience *while flying routes*! Later they *may* come back to learn to fly s.e. a/c, including going solo and getting a licence. I kid you not.
Assuming that is the case here, it is totally unsurprising that the co-pilot was ineffectual...................
So the go seems to be that on asian airlines you can count on having one pilot and a trainee.
But the cabin crew are generally great! :-)
GB - 24 Oct 2007 14:29 GMT "RT" <notr.thomas@nowhere.com.au> wrote in news:5o8s38Flp82vU1 @mid.individual.net:
> I'm on dial-up so won't be reading/printing it. Send me a URL and a snail mail address and I'll print'n'mail it if you like (you paid your taxes, right?!). Apparently the address in my posts isn't working again, but <firstname>@<lastname>.com.au works.
GB
 Signature "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)
Rob Ford - 25 Oct 2007 05:58 GMT
> One thing that did strike me as odd was the Co-pilots Total hours and > then hours on type (if I read it correctly) I will have a more > detailed read once I get a chance to print it all out. You're right Pits. I was going to make mention of it in my previous post but political correctness got in the way.... but since you've mentioned it... the guy has 1,528 hours of which 1,353 are in the B737. His flying experience outside of the 737 amounts to a whopping 175 hours - barely enough for a CPL and IR!!! His command time is likely around 75 hours. It spells C-A-D-E-T.
You have to wonder what the result may have been if the right seat was occupied by somebody a little more experienced. I've found cadets to be wonderful up until they have to do something they haven't done before. Sometimes these cadets would make better paperweights than they do "co-pilots". I've found they mature and are worth the weight of their oversized egos after about 3000 hours.
Co-pilot:
Date of birth : 18 October 1976 Date of joining company : 19 July 2004 Total time : 1,528 hrs: 40 minutes This make & model : 1,353 hrs: 55 minutes Last 90 Days : 248 hrs: 25 minutes Last 28 Days : 82 Hrs: 07 minutes
Captain:
Date of birth : 28 May 1962 Date of joining company : 16 October 1985 Total time : 13,421 hrs: 09 minutes This make and model : 3,703 hrs: 59 minutes Last 90 Days : 241 hrs: 46 minutes Last 28 Days : 90 Hrs: 08 minutes
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Ned - 24 Oct 2007 13:02 GMT >> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the >> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...." [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Perhaps a little dramatic journaliar licence in this sentence Yagu :) Based on just what you ignorant prick?
To return a rather milder insult than the derogatory compliment you and the juvenile GB extended to the reporter!
> Does anybody know if the voice recorder data is available for download? Yes I do.
And no it's not.
And so would you if you weren't too bone idle to get off your dumb fat @rse and do a little research yourself before showing your ignorance by badmouthing an essentially accurate report.
Pits - 24 Oct 2007 13:20 GMT > >> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the > >> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...." [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > showing your ignorance by badmouthing an essentially > accurate report. Gee Whizz NED!!! If Aus Aviation was being audited in a CRM sense reckon most of us would fail the test and objective reading the posts of late.
A gentlemens club these days ? NOT! :)
Now back to the subject -- whats your take on this prang ?
Second question (perhaps a new thread) Given the expansion of start up airlines and cheap carriers and shortage of proven competancy and decent procedures in some jurisdictions Is it something that ICAO and various professional pilots IATA et al should all get in a huddle and begin to sort the risks out before it gets too much worse ?
Ned - 24 Oct 2007 14:09 GMT >>>> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the >>>> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...." [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > A gentlemens club these days ? NOT! :) Hey Pits mate - wasn't me who started handing out unwarranted complements to journos here - that goes back at least as far as Capt JB IIRC and as far as I'm concerned are an insult to decent scribblers like Ted.
In this case GB goes beyond the pale - this was an accident which cost Aussie lives - journos among them. GB's blind an irrational hatred of the media renders him impervious to the normal considerations of polite society.
All this juvenile GB prick can offer by way of accident analysis is calling the reporter a liar based on a single word in an otherwise reasonably accurate report.
> Now back to the subject -- whats your take on this prang ? Garuda's fuel bonus policy obviously a significant factor.
Howard Government, and especially Downer's craven cowardice. They could force release of the withheld evidence which would enable prosecution in an instant if they chose to limit Garuda flights to Oz.
The deafening silence here on the absence of a pilot error finding.
Reveals, as I've said before the shallowness of the gene pool.
Ditto on the lack of comment on Crossfield's accident.
Cheers Ned
PS - saw your Abrams stuff elsewhere - I'm sure the blokes enjoy the aircon but.......not sure.
Why no Afghanistan deployment - the Canadians learned the hard way of the requirement - 60 or 70 deaths later before they sent the Leopards.
Craig Welch - 25 Oct 2007 05:45 GMT Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said:
>Howard Government, and especially Downer's craven cowardice. >They could force release of the withheld evidence which >would enable prosecution in an instant if they chose to >limit Garuda flights to Oz. How?
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Ned - 25 Oct 2007 11:27 GMT > Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > How? I assume that is a trick question, the point of which quite eludes me.
Please explain.
Craig Welch - 26 Oct 2007 04:02 GMT Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said:
>> Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I assume that is a trick question, the point of which quite >eludes me. How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government to release evidence?
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Ned - 26 Oct 2007 05:48 GMT > Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government > to release evidence? By exerting economic pressure via a threat to implement the same kind of airline bans as the EU, UK and US have done.
These bans have already impacted on the Indonesian economy and faced with a choice between more of the same or hanging Kapten Marwoto Komar out to dry they would cough soon enough.
"EU ban on Indonesian airlines hurting tourism 5 August 2007 As the country reels under economic, political and environmental troubles, Indonesia has a new burden to shoulder: an airlines’ ban that has a direct impact on its tourism. The European Union officially banned all 51 Indonesian airlines from flying to Europe starting on July 6, while the US Federal Aviation Administration in April declared Indonesia had failed to comply with international safety standards. Indonesia has dozens of low-cost airlines following the deregulation of the industry in the late 1990s, leading to a quadrupling of passenger numbers over the past seven years. But its air-safety record has been under fire following two commercial airline crashes that killed 123 people this year alone. EU’s Transport Commissioner Jacques Barrot said the blacklist is considered an important tool in preventing unsafe airlines from flying to Europe and in informing passengers worldwide of safety problems. “Honestly, the blacklist itself is not surprising since we have had many airline accidents recently,” Indonesian Transport Ministry Director General for Aviation Budi Mulyawan Suyitno said. “Although there is no direct impact - because no Indonesian airlines have been flying to Europe since 2004 - we will improve our safety measures for Indonesian airlines,” he said. Even so, the Indonesian government had earlier ignored two letters of inquiry the EU sent to the transport ministry, before it decided to blacklist the country’s airlines. Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono immediately expressed disappointment at the ban, calling it “the European Union’s unilateral action,” and demanding more room for dialogue. Transport Minister Jusman Djamal mulled a tit-for-tat action by hinting at the option of restricting access to its airspace for EU planes, or of advising its citizens not to fly with European airlines. But the latter invitation is likely to fall on deaf ears, as many polls conducted by local media show that most Indonesians are in fact worried about flying with their national airlines due to their poor safety records. “I demand the government improve the quality and safety of our transportation immediately,” Laksmindra Setyawati, 30, an employee with an international NGO in Jakarta said. Although government officials downplayed the impact, the EU’s ban has already begun hurting tourism. “European Union’s airline ban has definitely put a burden on Indonesian tourism, especially now that it’s the summer high-season for tourist arrivals,” Bali Tourism Board chairman Ngurah Wijaya said. “I know many tourists have cancelled their visits. “It will not only affect tourist arrivals, but will also hurt Indonesia’s economy, because it will decrease hotel occupancy rates, souvenir sales, and other things related to tourism,” Wijaya said. Indonesia has set a target of six million foreign visitors for this year and eight million in 2009 nationwide. The country had missed its tourist-arrival target of 5.5 million in 2006, registering 4.8 million foreign visitors for the year. To help sweeten the package for foreigners, the government has allowed the citizens of 63 countries to be granted visas on arrival in the archipelago nation. But the European Union contributes about 25 percent of tourist to the resort island of Bali alone, with as many as 600,000 European tourists visiting the country each year. “European tourists are in fact important to Indonesian tourism,” Wijaya said. "
http://www.neurope.eu/view_news.php?id=76536
Marts - 28 Oct 2007 02:27 GMT Ned wrote...
> By exerting economic pressure via a threat to implement the > same kind of airline bans as the EU, UK and US have done. Yeah, roight, moite...
As if Indonesia has ever listened to the Australian government over anything. Or whether, in fact, the government here has ever had the balls to really act tough with that country over any issue that may offend our sensibilities, let alone theirs... I think that we'd only see any sort of action if an Indonesian airline ever has an accident here in Oz.
It's like anything, don't do anything until someone gets hurt. Level crossing accidents come to mind...
 Signature Reality is for people who lack imagination.
Rob Ford - 26 Oct 2007 06:04 GMT > How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government > to release evidence? Probably about the same chance of getting them to release Australians incarcerated for drug offences.
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Peter Fanelli - 26 Oct 2007 13:47 GMT >> How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government >> to release evidence? > > Probably about the same chance of getting them to release Australians > incarcerated for drug offences. Are you saying that Australians incarcerated for drug offences should not serve their time?
Rob Ford - 26 Oct 2007 15:08 GMT > Are you saying that Australians incarcerated for drug offences should not > serve their time? No.
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John Ewing - 26 Oct 2007 15:17 GMT >>> How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government >>> to release evidence? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Are you saying that Australians incarcerated for drug offences should not > serve their time? My guess is that Rob is not making any personal statement about their sentence. He is talking about the chance of them being released - very slim odds.
John
Craig Welch - 27 Oct 2007 05:32 GMT Peter Fanelli <fanelli@bellsouth.removeme.net> said:
>>> How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government >>> to release evidence? >> >> Probably about the same chance of getting them to release Australians >> incarcerated for drug offences.
>Are you saying that Australians incarcerated for drug offences should not >serve their time? I would certainly say that, as the sentences are dis-proportionate to the offences.
However, it's their legal system, so I acknowledge that the sentences stand, and don't exert any of my thoughts on trying to change that.
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Marts - 28 Oct 2007 02:29 GMT Craig Welch wrote...
> I would certainly say that, as the sentences are dis-proportionate > to the offences. > > However, it's their legal system, so I acknowledge that the > sentences stand, and don't exert any of my thoughts on trying to > change that. Same to for those involved in the Bali bombings. Haven't seen any executions of the locals involved, yet. And some have even had sentences reduced. Then there's the issue of drug traffickers getting far harsher sentences than some of those terrorists.
Goes to priorities, I s'pose...
 Signature Don't bet on a horse that's called "Tarzan's Grip"...
GB - 24 Oct 2007 14:27 GMT Pits <spamlister@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193228419.131329.128900 @i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> A gentlemens club these days ? NOT! :) We're just going through a phase Phil, and we'll just ride it out like we usually do!
GB
 Signature "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)
Pits - 24 Oct 2007 16:25 GMT > Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193228419.131329.128900 > @i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual > officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979) Coughs politely -------- Hmmmmmm GB my view is I would if I were you draw a discrete veil on such comments :) You aint the white hat you wish to appear more than a few times . But at least you a consistent shade of dark grey.
GB - 24 Oct 2007 22:31 GMT Pits <spamlister@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180 @q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> You aint the white hat you wish to appear more than a few times . You're putting words in my mouth Phil. I've not stated a desire to be any particular colour. I'll happily concede that "white" would be somewhat boring however.
GB
 Signature "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)
Pits - 25 Oct 2007 01:42 GMT > Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180 > @q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual > officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979) I am more of a beige kinda fellah myself --------- what ever The subject is this awful and needless prang and what amounts to criminal negligence on the part of the Captain who was flying this Gecas hull (yep another lease paid out by insurance in Asia ) But This aspect alone could get interesting in the land of Litigation (USA)
In fact one way is for the Lenders to new airlines piloted by noddy's is to put draconian trigger clauses in at the finance stage :) My favourite trigger clause is "at my/our absolute and unfettered discretion" Put it in a slightlt larger type or in Italics then get the lessees and sub lessees to initial that page (near the clause <grin> ) Then at time of signing mention it again and obtain a required wavers (to later allow you to arrest aircraft in Jurisdictions that are never happy when you arrive to chain the thing to the ground)
When I was in finance land used this more than once to keep recalcitrant borrowers on the straight & narrow One Asian airline in Particular and the odd ships owners ------- but we kept our losses to a minimum by keeping eyes on the Chief pilots and the companies operations and service procedures ( another finance device was fine attention to detail on all matters MEL (including the galleys and toilets ) If you read this report I picked up in my quick scan that they were certainly in breach on service by not having the FDR and CVR broken pins fixed (I recall they replaced a part with an incorrect part ) thus hobbling all the data collection which proves that this particular golliwog airline did not know in service areas their bum from their elbow in the electronics testing area .
Given that the financiers are custodians not only of their shareholders funds but required by law to protect their own assets in a vigorous and fiduciary manner . This is just one way (of many) that Governments who wish outcomes can use methods available to them in a manner that does not involve other government diplomacy avenues .
Given that Mac bank and NAB Westpac and ANZ to name a few in oz have exposure via syndicated loans via GECAS ( a syndicated loan is where the prome lessor in effect lays of part of the risk on total exposure ) We in oz if concerned can rattle certain cages via that Avenue -------- However, other playes such as Singapore aircraft leasing ,Moscow Novotney, Polaris investements, Trade CC and the like would not give a rats whether the hulls pranged or not as long as they could ensure they were paid out after the fires died down and the victims buried . Example to this contention are recent former soviet states writing off and killing heaps in AN12.s recently
Hopefully ICAO professional pilots and Travel industry groups said to have some form of oversight (to various degrees) could influence change by boycots as just one example . Lenders could hold off until Garuda and its even more worrisome new comer airlines and some TRULY worrisome events in India & China are playing with the same fire
Its about finance and risk right across the board . Example is the Lenders as oppsoed to the beneficial owner operators of the aircraft get (or should get by law) all A D "s from the MFG's a few don't and even more when they do the clerical dweebs have not a clue what to do or even worse the paperwork is overly broad at best or totally useless by its ambiguity at worst -thus some operators this very day are flying deficient aircraft or suffering deficient systems (such as dud ops and service manuals) and a lot of these aircraft fly into Australia Garuda TG MH United Chinese carriers (all of them) just to name a few .
Also Qantas and others could in extreme instances be captured by a spot audit ( at least happily they are probably the bench mark along with FinAir SAS and Royal Brunei) on paying diligent attention to all detail there may be others but I have not been exposed to them when in finance and other lands :)
One cheap Carrier that was truly impressive on attention to detail given the lack of resources was Ryan air pretty switched on mob and good culture in some aspects compared to others we had to deal with :(
One major airline we had "relations" with only bought new aircraft and turned them over before D checks arrived But the Chinese bean counters run that airline and some very "interesting" glitches in the servicing of aircraft came to light -example screw jacks NEVER EVER greased by the ground mechanics if it meant indenting for grease over the allotted allowance to that cost/ profit centre . This translated to a pilot grounding the aircraft in USA when he spotted this fault the poor bugger got carpeted BIG TIME when he arrived back at base --- this particular airline still today "chastises" such pilots who bring red ink into the equation by fiddling with their rosters and bidding slots to as one bean counter in this airline said to us ( keep them aware where the money that goes into the pilots pocket comes from ) .
That particular pilot now no longer flies for them --- we in finance land however, after we became aware of this type of practice wrote into loan docs methods to A -discover such practices and B used them with vigour to straighten out the three main pencil necks who were more interested in their own bonuses than the safe and efficient running of this airline .
The industry imo is in a higher degree of risk mainly because of immature and and rapidly growing trends and less than robust oversight or even awarness in many jurisdictions .
I sincerely hope that all who have any degree of influence in the industry right down to the refuel bodies ramp rats and up to the travel industry THEN Governments all adopt that now is the time to draw a line in the sand (or across the tarmac) and re-examine how their respective cultures can force less than competent or judicious parties to improve this situation before it really gets out of hand by its startling growth
End of rant
To Paraphrase woody Allen in an aviation sense I do not worry about death (by an aircraft accident) I just do not want to be there when it happens :)
Phil
Rob - 25 Oct 2007 03:26 GMT >>Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180 >>@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com: WOW Phil - that's full of home truths, some of which I can relate.
r
> I am more of a beige kinda fellah myself --------- what ever > The subject is this awful and needless prang and what amounts to [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > > Phil Pits - 25 Oct 2007 05:06 GMT > >>Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180 > >>@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com: > > WOW Phil - that's full of home truths, some of which I can relate. > > r <grin> Rob those that DO know me - know that when I stop acting the goat time to make sure everything is tickety boo :) Before I or my "people" start sniffing about But Dinkum this accident is No surprise only surprise is it is fantastic luck that there are not more like them.
When about Medan ATC (used to not sure if they still do) for example had this unhappy propensity of turning folks onto a heading straight at a bloody great hill - not until you query them do they get it right and twig that cumulo granatis is bad for your health .
But it can be addressed but needs some real heavy handed action as it appears all else is not working at the moment and the various cultures relating to aviation safety are self perpetuating not just in the Indon region but other places as well even here to a much lesser extent ------- buggered if I have the solution - :(
> > I am more of a beige kinda fellah myself --------- what ever > > The subject is this awful and needless prang and what amounts to [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > > > Phil Rob - 25 Oct 2007 06:39 GMT >>>>Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180 >>>>@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > goat time to make sure everything is tickety boo :) Before I or my > "people" start sniffing about
>>>One major airline we had "relations" with only bought new aircraft and >>>turned them over before D checks arrived This is the one that I relate, a major carrier who fly into Australia that does minimal maintenance just because they have new aircraft.
What would be interesting is to see how many aircraft get turned over with those who keep buying new aircraft. You see the bragging rights of Airbus and Boeing on the order books, very little mention who buys the old ones, and at what stage the aircraft are sold on.
Pits - 25 Oct 2007 07:44 GMT > >>>>Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180 > >>>>@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Airbus and Boeing on the order books, very little mention who buys the > old ones, and at what stage the aircraft are sold on. Used aircraft Post D check are worth their weight in gold if D check done properly especially if you have to wait yonks for your new birds to roll off a delayed production slot . Also tired old girls can be used to make a quid if "nicked" at the right price and then on / x hired until hours /cycles expire -then do the d check and average out the total cost and often it comes up cheaper than a damp or dry lease on same equipment even if written down to a $ then when on sold or traded in the book profit is fruit for the side board .
Some old MD 's are still mint even approaching end of cycles As are some 747 example ex SAA and El Al Qantas and such NOT MH or TG (shudder) Eva etc Yet although Alitalia were in dire financial straights some of their aircraft were real gems and a nick (even if we could not exactly sort out the paperwork on a couple of Loaner donks but Air NZ are also a nightmare along with others in that area. Most of the yank paperwork is far easier to back track but not all
The aircraft paper and docs says one thing but the physical units = where the hell are they type of nightmare ( good inducement for transparency when you are holding back on urgent funds) Then the Lawyers get all upset /make more fees and yell at you = well boys and girls time for lunch bye see you when you find MY equipment :)
Funny how it suddenly turns up ------------------------------- eventually then you can be a real mongrel and say because of this instance might have another look at the deal -for expediency how about another few $$$$ or we shall keep soem back in a retention fund just in case it is not all that it seems - Oh and expect spot audits in future <grin> However it the client or proponent is gilt edged you do what you have to to stop them off to another financier <not grinning>
Finance houses are actually just big liars clubs The clients lie the lenders lie the valuers lie the manufactures lie the Governments lie actually blody frustrating now to do a decent old fashioned deal ------------- no hand shake is worth the paper its written on : (
Back to old aircraft -------------- long may they live :) They have excellent uses in the right hands and a bit of nouce sadly too many clients fall in love with their assets or dreams .At the extreme end of the spectrum it gets folks killed or toasted or part of the landscape ( lovely forensics when the pax become part of the hull ) and sorting out who is who Or what (sad stuff REALLY)
Thus a percentage of such pain to all can be changed if teh industry bites the bullet in a unified collective manner . In the end bad business will equate to no business if this keeps up .
There is an election here coming up why not use it for the benefit of the industry ?
Cheers
Yagu - 25 Oct 2007 08:37 GMT quote Pits
>When about Medan ATC (used to not sure if they still do) for example > had this unhappy propensity of turning folks onto a heading straight > at a bloody great hill - not until you query them do they get it > right and twig that cumulo granatis is bad for your health . end quote.
Pitsy, Interesting notes you make!
Was having a chat to a mate in Medan this morning, checking up if he's ok after the shake last night and I mentioned the quote above. he tells me it still happens, with boring (to them) frequency. one query I have in relation to finance issues in say Indon, is how or who reliably would you get in Indo to carry out a lock up, same say in Thailand or Kampuchea? Given the nature of internal politics in all of these places it would almost be impossible.
Given GECAS connection to AU Banking, wonder why not or indded if ever, there has been a clause written in the agreements ensuring that Pilots who do fly these leased AC are in fact sufficiently qualified to have an AU, UK or US CPL endorsement.
regards
YaguMac
Yagu - 25 Oct 2007 13:31 GMT Pits, following on from earlier posts, here's an interesting link:
http://www.globalaviationlaw.com/accident-comair.htm
note the blurb on Indon accidents ie Garuda and Adams
> quote Pits > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > YaguMac Pits - 25 Oct 2007 17:48 GMT > Pits, following on from earlier posts, here's an interesting link: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > YaguMac G' evening Jayzus mate ---------- I know you have a brain ------ But the link you posted is just septic tank ambulance chasing w.nk.
Re the line of thought on Financiers -------------- its not the licensing of the pilots -------------- it is the letter of the agreement and subtle and not so subtle weasel clauses to capture the arse holes in the industry most of who wear suites and the mortgage belt Mothers wish their daughters to marry well :)
to put it in simple terms 1 Guys with $ deal with manufactures who lend other guys with $ at about 3% then the $ go through a 'washing macine" in USA called exim bank that lends mFGS via various means 'subordinated" tranches ,pledge lending non recourse facilities ( tied to a gurantess proopeed up by uncle sam and other bullshit) The Eu does same but with style :) and better lunches :):):):) ( burp !!! 2 noddy airlines pays consultants 3 banks pay more analysts every one tries to pay a sling and not get caught d(do this deal and we give you a plum gilt edged one ) This with the oversight of the grey men who are "involved" with various Governments and coated with teflon 4 golli wog airlines gets a shiny new toy and every one hopes it either pays its way or prangs so the production line gets a new slot and the next airshow hospitality tent needs extra lubricant for the various mutual masturbation societies and press releases of Options and undisclosed orders ( which often are blatant bullshit)
fly home go to lunch and let the back office sort out the details
The good bits are you may get to jump the seconded PA air head who does not have a clue about being a PA but has great tits and gives good head if you financed the bullshit order (no matter what weasel clauses you wrote in ) :) As long as it appeared in flight international and the trade mags
Bit like politics really eh :)
Yagu - 26 Oct 2007 02:36 GMT Hahah, yep, I know it's w.nk Mate, thought it relevant though to an earlier comment in relation to suing. It seems to me when one has yank w.nks like this seeking to make a living out of less fortunates, then it's no wonder that more often than not operators like garuda and other similarly shocking carriers would just laugh at the suggestion of any retribution being succesful! Cheers for the photos of the 380 btw, the high resolution one is magic.
Yagu
>> Pits, following on from earlier posts, here's an interesting link: >> [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > Bit like politics really eh :) RT - 26 Oct 2007 07:48 GMT > The good bits are you may get to jump the seconded PA air head who > does not have a clue about being a PA but has great tits and gives > good head if you financed the bullshit order (no matter what weasel > clauses you wrote in ) :) As long as it appeared in flight > international and the trade mags Heh! I knew bloody well you weren't in it for the money :-)
Rob Ford - 25 Oct 2007 06:30 GMT > And so would you if you weren't too bone idle to get off > your dumb fat @rse and do a little research yourself before > showing your ignorance by badmouthing an essentially > accurate report. Youre quite a rude fellow, arent you Ned?
Obviously I searched the web first you fool but it yielded little more than the ATC communications rather than the in-flight chatter that I was after. Ive managed to get a copy of the CVR that was extracted from the damaged box in Canberra.
I dont dispute that the report was quite accurate and informative overall. Please make more of an effort to behave in a respectable fashion buddy. Youre rudeness impresses nobody.
 Signature Posted at www.Usenet.com.au
Ned - 25 Oct 2007 13:09 GMT >> And so would you if you weren't too bone idle to get off >> your dumb fat @rse and do a little research yourself before >> showing your ignorance by badmouthing an essentially >> accurate report. > > You’re quite a rude fellow, aren’t you Ned? Your crassness would easily trump my rudeness any time Rob.
> Obviously I searched the web first you fool but it yielded little more > than the ATC communications rather than the in-flight chatter that I was > after. But it *DID* contain the exact information which you then went on to accuse the journalist of misreporting.
And *you* have the nerve call *me* fool - BWAHAHAHA!
>I’ve managed to get a copy of the CVR that was extracted from the > damaged box in Canberra. > > I don’t dispute that the report was quite accurate and informative > overall. Hang about - that is absolutely *NOT* what you said!!!!!
You characterised the journalist - as a *liar*!!!!
I quote you directly - ""... as well as the copilot screaming to the chief pilot to go around when the aircraft first bounced off the runway."
Perhaps a little dramatic journaliar licence in this sentence Yagu "
You went ahead and posted this malicious unfounded accusation despite Yagu having already gently pointed out to the resident anal propellor-head that the ABC had made a fair fist of their report.
>Please make more of an effort to behave in a respectable fashion > buddy. You, of all people, Rob Ford, are hardly in any position to discuss respectable behaviour.
> You’re rudeness impresses nobody. Crassness trumps rudeness any day in my book boyo.
Crass enough to falsely accuse anybody of being a liar.
Doubly crass when the bloke's on the job credibility depends on it.
And totally beyond contempt when you falsely and maliciously accuse a bloke of being a liar in a fair and unbiased report he filed about an accident in which an Indonesian cowboy killed two of his close friends and colleagues.
Friends he last farewelled on the tarmac at Yogya as their charred remains were loaded onto the RAAF Herc for the trip home.
I think the reporter continues to do a very creditable job under the circumstances and both you and Breach are nothing short of a bloody disgrace.
Ned
Sylvia Else - 24 Oct 2007 13:56 GMT >> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the >> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...." [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Perhaps a little dramatic journaliar licence in this sentence Yagu :) Does > anybody know if the voice recorder data is available for download? If it's from the same site as the report, you'd finish downloading it sometime next year.
The report says this final call to go around was made "with high intonation." I suspect that's a euphemism that the journalist has correctly translated.
> I personally can't imagine what drugs the Captain was on that caused him > to continue such an unstable approach. We'll presumably never know if he was. The report attributes his behaviour to stress. It could well be so - stress makes people do strange things, even if the stress is, as it was in this case, of their own making.
Sylvia.
Ned - 24 Oct 2007 14:25 GMT >>> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of >>> the aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...." [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > intonation." I suspect that's a euphemism that the journalist has > correctly translated. Quite obviously.
Rob Ford and others would obviously prefer to gob off and slander the journo and media report than do their own basic research.
Pits - 24 Oct 2007 22:04 GMT > >>> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of > >>> the aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...." [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > slander the journo and media report than do their own basic > research. Think ( but not often) that you may be a bit hard on a fellow contributor and I actually think the quality of posts in here are improving . To be blunt I never read he was gobbing off at a journo -------- My bit on the journo in this case was he/she got it pretty well damn close to the report I skimmed over , Struth if we all stressed over pedantic aviation terms not a yank would get a look in -because of such things as airplanes etc..
Further my take on this even at a quick rendang (reading) of the report was that the managment and ops folks of this carrier as well as the crew and all who are said to have any form of oversight -should all be hung out to dry
Whomever said that oz Govt should speak up on the ops and situation of Carriers flying into & out of oz with standards like this ---------- I agree 101 %
If they were as diligent on this kind of breach as opposed to say being late in/out on curfews then I could reconcile some balance of the overall system
Any way whomever asked iv the CVR tapes were available hope they can understand the Bahasa and local idiom :)
Ned - 24 Oct 2007 13:30 GMT > GB, the report , and I'm sure you have read it, says amongst other things, > an I quote " [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Agree GB? I think you've overestimated GB's intelligence/maturity Yagu and have not recognized his total inability, without the benefit of a prior TV doco to hold his hand, to offer any meaningful analysis whatsoever of any aircraft accidents at all.
In this case, if you care to reread below he had got no further than seizing on the nameplate on the Garuda Chief Pilot's door. Well Do'h
Instantly like many before him here, he couldn't prevent a blind prejudice against journos stop him from making a juvenile idiot of himself.
I'm sure the undergrads he mixes with think he's a hoot.
> Cheers, > Yagu Mac [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> GB
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