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Garuda Crash last March - News report

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Rob - 22 Oct 2007 09:50 GMT
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/22/2066577.htm

The final report on the crash of a Garuda plane in Indonesia earlier
this year has delivered scathing criticism of the pilots and airline
regulators.

Five Australians were among the 21 people killed when Garuda flight 200
crash-landed in March.

The final report on the crash has strongly condemned the pilot in charge
for flying too fast for the plane's wing-flaps to be operated properly.

It says the pilot in charge of Garuda flight 200 did not follow company
procedures and make a stabilised approach to the runway in Yogyakarta on
the day of the accident.

He was also criticised for not aborting the landing and going around
when alerts sounded 15 times, as well as the copilot screaming to the
chief pilot to go around when the aircraft first bounced off the runway.

The copilot was also criticised for not taking control of the aircraft
when it was clear the landing conditions were unsafe.

The report also finds the copilot received no simulated training in
taking over control of the plane from the chief pilot to execute a
go-around when conditions were unsafe.

Indonesia's Director General of Civil Aviation was also criticised for
not identifying deficiencies in the pilot's training.

Rescue and firefighting services at Yogyakarta Airport are also
criticised in the report for not being able to access the crash site and
not having the appropriate fire suppressant when they got there.

The delay in extinguishing the fire and the lack of appropriate fire
suppressant agents may have significantly reduced the passengers'
chances of surviving the crash, the report says.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Are there any other official sources?
Sylvia Else - 22 Oct 2007 09:53 GMT
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/22/2066577.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Are there any other official sources?

The official report is available

http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/Final%20report%20PK-GZC%20Release.pdf

however, it seems that everyone and his dog is trying to download it at
the moment.

Sylvia.
GB - 22 Oct 2007 13:31 GMT
[...]
> taking over control of the plane from the chief pilot to execute a

Journalistic idiocy right there.

> Are there any other official sources?

lord knows, we need a better source!

GB
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"Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual
 officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)

John Ewing - 22 Oct 2007 22:45 GMT
> [...]
>> taking over control of the plane from the chief pilot to execute a
>
> Journalistic idiocy right there.

Sometimes wonder at the obsesssion to nick-pick every news item not written
by an aviation expert.
I would suggest that the general public would not have be mislead by using
"chief pilot" instead of "pilot in command".  Even aviation experts would
have understood what was meant without feeling the need to demean the
author.  Now check every word I've written - you'll probably find at least
one spilling error   :)

Cheers,
John
GB - 22 Oct 2007 22:52 GMT
> Even aviation experts would
> have understood what was meant without feeling the need to demean the
> author.  Now check every word I've written - you'll probably find at
> least one spilling error   :)

It was written by a journaliar. I was placed on this planet to
demean journaliars! As two you're own work, I have run my
spilling chequer over it and it looks grate. :-)

GB
Signature

"Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual
 officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)

Ned - 23 Oct 2007 16:44 GMT
>> Even aviation experts would
>> have understood what was meant without feeling the need to demean the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  It was written by a journaliar. I was placed on this planet to
> demean journaliars!

One word - puerile!
Yagu - 24 Oct 2007 09:36 GMT
GB, the report , and I'm sure you have read it, says amongst other things,
an I quote "

'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the
aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."

So, in this case, the ABC report was spot on in their quote.
I am by no means a defender nor a fan of all things ABC, but in this case, I
feel they need to be congratulated on excellent reporting.

Agree GB?

Cheers,
Yagu Mac
> [...]
>> taking over control of the plane from the chief pilot to execute a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> GB
Rob Ford - 24 Oct 2007 12:14 GMT
> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the
> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
>
> So, in this case, the ABC report was spot on in their quote.
> I am by no means a defender nor a fan of all things ABC, but in this case, I
> feel they need to be congratulated on excellent reporting.

"... as well as the copilot screaming to the chief pilot to go around when
the aircraft first bounced off the runway."

Perhaps a little dramatic journaliar licence in this sentence Yagu :) Does
anybody know if the voice recorder data is available for download?

I personally can't imagine what drugs the Captain was on that caused him
to continue such an unstable approach. I laugh when I hear reports (mainly
from the PIC's legal team) that the pilot should be commended for saving
as many lives as he did. It's akin to *intentionally* shooting somebody in
the head and then praising them when the victim doesn't die!

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Posted at www.Usenet.com.au

Pits - 24 Oct 2007 12:58 GMT
> > 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the
> > aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> --
> Posted atwww.Usenet.com.au

G'Day Mr Ford.  moving on from the Journo Comments and onto my quick
reading of the report.

Bloody heck !! It is a miracle  that this prang did not total
everyone. IMO

Now what lessons can *WE* all learn from this spectacularly awful and
some what curious event ?  Especially the bug smashers  who are or may
be on here.
One thing that did strike me as odd  was the Co-pilots Total hours and
then hours on type (if I read it correctly)  I will have a more
detailed read once I get a chance to print it all out.

P
RT - 24 Oct 2007 13:28 GMT
"Pits" <spamlister@gmail.com> wrote in message
> One thing that did strike me as odd  was the Co-pilots Total hours and
> then hours on type (if I read it correctly)  I will have a more
> detailed read once I get a chance to print it all out.

I'm on dial-up so won't be reading/printing it.   However, if the co-pilot's
total hours are close to the hours on type, then you have an example of the
latest version of asian airline pilot training, as described to me last
Sunday by an instructor who is in that system.   IOW the ab-initio candidate
is given the bare minimum of hands-on, plus a big chunk of simulator and is
then posted as a co-pilot on the airline aircraft type to gain further
experience *while flying routes*!   Later they *may* come back to learn to
fly s.e. a/c, including going solo and getting a licence.   I kid you not.

Assuming that is the case here, it is totally unsurprising that the co-pilot
was ineffectual...................

So the go seems to be that on asian airlines you can count on having one
pilot and a trainee.

But the cabin crew are generally great! :-)
GB - 24 Oct 2007 14:29 GMT
"RT" <notr.thomas@nowhere.com.au> wrote in news:5o8s38Flp82vU1
@mid.individual.net:
> I'm on dial-up so won't be reading/printing it.

Send me a URL and a snail mail address and I'll print'n'mail it
if you like (you paid your taxes, right?!). Apparently the address
in my posts isn't working again, but <firstname>@<lastname>.com.au
works.

GB
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"Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual
 officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)

Rob Ford - 25 Oct 2007 05:58 GMT

> One thing that did strike me as odd  was the Co-pilots Total hours and
> then hours on type (if I read it correctly)  I will have a more
> detailed read once I get a chance to print it all out.

You're right Pits. I was going to make mention of it in my previous post
but political correctness got in the way.... but since you've mentioned
it... the guy has 1,528 hours of which 1,353 are in the B737. His flying
experience outside of the 737 amounts to a whopping 175 hours - barely
enough for a CPL and IR!!! His command time is likely around 75 hours. It
spells C-A-D-E-T.

You have to wonder what the result may have been if the right seat was
occupied by somebody a little more experienced. I've found cadets to be
wonderful up until they have to do something they haven't done before.
Sometimes these cadets would make better paperweights than they do
"co-pilots". I've found they mature and are worth the weight of their
oversized egos after about 3000 hours.

Co-pilot:

Date of birth : 18 October 1976
Date of joining company : 19 July 2004
Total time : 1,528 hrs: 40 minutes
This make & model : 1,353 hrs: 55 minutes
Last 90 Days : 248 hrs: 25 minutes
Last 28 Days : 82 Hrs: 07 minutes

Captain:

Date of birth : 28 May 1962
Date of joining company : 16 October 1985
Total time : 13,421 hrs: 09 minutes
This make and model : 3,703 hrs: 59 minutes
Last 90 Days : 241 hrs: 46 minutes
Last 28 Days : 90 Hrs: 08 minutes

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Ned - 24 Oct 2007 13:02 GMT
>> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the
>> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Perhaps a little dramatic journaliar licence in this sentence Yagu :)

Based on just what you ignorant prick?

To return a rather milder insult than the derogatory
compliment you and the juvenile GB extended to the reporter!

> Does anybody know if the voice recorder data is available for download?

Yes I do.

And no it's not.

And so would you if you weren't too bone idle to get off
your dumb fat @rse and do a little research yourself before
showing your ignorance by badmouthing an essentially
accurate report.
Pits - 24 Oct 2007 13:20 GMT
> >> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the
> >> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> showing your ignorance by badmouthing an essentially
> accurate report.

Gee Whizz NED!!!   If Aus Aviation was being audited in a CRM sense
reckon most of us would fail  the test and objective  reading the
posts of late.

A gentlemens club  these days ?  NOT!  :)

Now back to the subject -- whats your take on this prang ?

Second question (perhaps a  new thread)
Given the  expansion of  start up airlines and cheap carriers and
shortage of  proven competancy and decent procedures in some
jurisdictions
Is it something that ICAO and various professional pilots  IATA et al
should all get in a huddle and begin to sort  the risks out before it
gets too much worse ?
Ned - 24 Oct 2007 14:09 GMT
>>>> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the
>>>> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> A gentlemens club  these days ?  NOT!  :)

Hey Pits mate - wasn't me who started handing out
unwarranted complements to journos here - that goes back at
least as far as Capt JB IIRC and as far as I'm concerned are
an insult to decent scribblers like Ted.

In this case GB goes beyond the pale - this was an accident
which cost Aussie lives - journos among them. GB's blind an
irrational hatred of the media renders him impervious to the
normal considerations of polite society.

All this juvenile GB prick can offer by way of accident
analysis is calling the reporter a liar based on a single
word in an otherwise reasonably accurate report.

> Now back to the subject -- whats your take on this prang ?

Garuda's fuel bonus policy obviously a significant factor.

Howard Government, and especially Downer's craven cowardice.
They could force release of the withheld evidence which
would enable prosecution in an instant if they chose to
limit Garuda flights to Oz.

The deafening silence here on the absence of a pilot error
finding.

Reveals, as I've said before the shallowness of the gene pool.

Ditto on the lack of comment on Crossfield's accident.

Cheers
Ned

PS - saw your Abrams stuff elsewhere - I'm sure the blokes
enjoy the aircon but.......not sure.

Why no Afghanistan deployment - the Canadians learned the
hard way of the requirement - 60 or 70 deaths later before
they sent the Leopards.
Craig Welch - 25 Oct 2007 05:45 GMT
Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said:

>Howard Government, and especially Downer's craven cowardice.
>They could force release of the withheld evidence which
>would enable prosecution in an instant if they chose to
>limit Garuda flights to Oz.

How?
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Ned - 25 Oct 2007 11:27 GMT
> Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> How?

I assume that is a trick question, the point of which quite
eludes me.

Please explain.
Craig Welch - 26 Oct 2007 04:02 GMT
Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said:

>> Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I assume that is a trick question, the point of which quite
>eludes me.

How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government
to release evidence?

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Ned - 26 Oct 2007 05:48 GMT
> Ned <nednot@aioe.org> said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government
> to release evidence?

By exerting economic pressure via a threat to implement the
same kind of airline bans as the EU, UK and US have done.

These bans have already impacted on the Indonesian economy
and faced with a choice between more of the same or hanging
Kapten Marwoto Komar out to dry they would cough soon enough.

"EU ban on Indonesian airlines hurting tourism
5 August 2007
As the country reels under economic, political and
environmental troubles, Indonesia has a new burden to
shoulder: an airlines’ ban that has a direct impact on its
tourism.
The European Union officially banned all 51 Indonesian
airlines from flying to Europe starting on July 6, while the
US Federal Aviation Administration in April declared
Indonesia had failed to comply with international safety
standards.
Indonesia has dozens of low-cost airlines following the
deregulation of the industry in the late 1990s, leading to a
quadrupling of passenger numbers over the past seven years.
But its air-safety record has been under fire following two
commercial airline crashes that killed 123 people this year
alone.
EU’s Transport Commissioner Jacques Barrot said the
blacklist is considered an important tool in preventing
unsafe airlines from flying to Europe and in informing
passengers worldwide of safety problems.
“Honestly, the blacklist itself is not surprising since we
have had many airline accidents recently,” Indonesian
Transport Ministry Director General for Aviation Budi
Mulyawan Suyitno said.
“Although there is no direct impact - because no Indonesian
airlines have been flying to Europe since 2004 - we will
improve our safety measures for Indonesian airlines,” he said.
Even so, the Indonesian government had earlier ignored two
letters of inquiry the EU sent to the transport ministry,
before it decided to blacklist the country’s airlines.
Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono immediately
expressed disappointment at the ban, calling it “the
European Union’s unilateral action,” and demanding more room
for dialogue.
Transport Minister Jusman Djamal mulled a tit-for-tat action
by hinting at the option of restricting access to its
airspace for EU planes, or of advising its citizens not to
fly with European airlines.
But the latter invitation is likely to fall on deaf ears, as
many polls conducted by local media show that most
Indonesians are in fact worried about flying with their
national airlines due to their poor safety records.
“I demand the government improve the quality and safety of
our transportation immediately,” Laksmindra Setyawati, 30,
an employee with an international NGO in Jakarta said.
Although government officials downplayed the impact, the
EU’s ban has already begun hurting tourism.
“European Union’s airline ban has definitely put a burden on
Indonesian tourism, especially now that it’s the summer
high-season for tourist arrivals,” Bali Tourism Board
chairman Ngurah Wijaya said. “I know many tourists have
cancelled their visits.
“It will not only affect tourist arrivals, but will also
hurt Indonesia’s economy, because it will decrease hotel
occupancy rates, souvenir sales, and other things related to
tourism,” Wijaya said.
Indonesia has set a target of six million foreign visitors
for this year and eight million in 2009 nationwide. The
country had missed its tourist-arrival target of 5.5 million
in 2006, registering 4.8 million foreign visitors for the year.
To help sweeten the package for foreigners, the government
has allowed the citizens of 63 countries to be granted visas
on arrival in the archipelago nation.
But the European Union contributes about 25 percent of
tourist to the resort island of Bali alone, with as many as
600,000 European tourists visiting the country each year.
“European tourists are in fact important to Indonesian
tourism,” Wijaya said. "

http://www.neurope.eu/view_news.php?id=76536
Marts - 28 Oct 2007 02:27 GMT
Ned wrote...

> By exerting economic pressure via a threat to implement the
> same kind of airline bans as the EU, UK and US have done.

Yeah, roight, moite...

As if Indonesia has ever listened to the Australian government over anything. Or
whether, in fact, the government here has ever had the balls to really act tough
with that country over any issue that may offend our sensibilities, let alone
theirs...

I think that we'd only see any sort of action if an Indonesian airline ever has
an accident here in Oz.

It's like anything, don't do anything until someone gets hurt. Level crossing
accidents come to mind...

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Reality is for people who lack imagination.

Rob Ford - 26 Oct 2007 06:04 GMT
> How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government
> to release evidence?

Probably about the same chance of getting them to release Australians
incarcerated for drug offences.

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Posted at www.Usenet.com.au

Peter Fanelli - 26 Oct 2007 13:47 GMT
>> How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government
>> to release evidence?
>
> Probably about the same chance of getting them to release Australians
> incarcerated for drug offences.

Are you saying that Australians incarcerated for drug offences should not
serve their time?
Rob Ford - 26 Oct 2007 15:08 GMT
> Are you saying that Australians incarcerated for drug offences should not
> serve their time?

No.

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Posted at www.Usenet.com.au

John Ewing - 26 Oct 2007 15:17 GMT
>>> How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government
>>> to release evidence?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Are you saying that Australians incarcerated for drug offences should not
> serve their time?

My guess is that Rob is not making any personal statement about their
sentence.
He is talking about the chance of them being released - very slim odds.

John
Craig Welch - 27 Oct 2007 05:32 GMT
Peter Fanelli <fanelli@bellsouth.removeme.net> said:

>>> How would the Government be able to force the Indonesian Government
>>> to release evidence?
>>
>> Probably about the same chance of getting them to release Australians
>> incarcerated for drug offences.

>Are you saying that Australians incarcerated for drug offences should not
>serve their time?

I would certainly say that, as the sentences are dis-proportionate
to the offences.

However, it's their legal system, so I acknowledge that the
sentences stand, and don't exert any of my thoughts on trying to
change that.
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Marts - 28 Oct 2007 02:29 GMT
Craig Welch wrote...


> I would certainly say that, as the sentences are dis-proportionate
> to the offences.
>
> However, it's their legal system, so I acknowledge that the
> sentences stand, and don't exert any of my thoughts on trying to
> change that.

Same to for those involved in the Bali bombings. Haven't seen any executions of
the locals involved, yet. And some have even had sentences reduced. Then there's
the issue of drug traffickers getting far harsher sentences than some of those
terrorists.

Goes to priorities, I s'pose...

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GB - 24 Oct 2007 14:27 GMT
Pits <spamlister@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193228419.131329.128900
@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> A gentlemens club  these days ?  NOT!  :)

We're just going through a phase Phil, and we'll just ride it out
like we usually do!

GB
Signature

"Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual
 officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)

Pits - 24 Oct 2007 16:25 GMT
> Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193228419.131329.128900
> @i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>  "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual
>   officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)

Coughs politely  -------- Hmmmmmm GB  my view is I would if I were you
draw a discrete veil  on such comments :)
You aint  the white hat you wish to appear  more than a few times .
But at least you a consistent shade of  dark grey.
GB - 24 Oct 2007 22:31 GMT
Pits <spamlister@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180
@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> You aint  the white hat you wish to appear  more than a few times .

You're putting words in my mouth Phil. I've not stated a desire
to be any particular colour. I'll happily concede that "white"
would be somewhat boring however.

GB
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"Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual
 officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)

Pits - 25 Oct 2007 01:42 GMT
> Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180
> @q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>  "Most police misconduct occurs when citizens challenge an individual
>   officer's authority" (Reiss, 1971 c.in Jermier & Berkes 1979)

I am more of a beige kinda fellah myself --------- what ever
The subject is this awful and needless prang  and what amounts to
criminal negligence on the part of the Captain who was flying this
Gecas hull (yep another lease paid out by insurance in Asia )  But
This aspect alone could get interesting in the land of Litigation
(USA)

In fact one way is for the Lenders to new airlines piloted by noddy's
is to put draconian trigger clauses  in at the finance stage :) My
favourite trigger clause is   "at my/our absolute and unfettered
discretion" Put it in a slightlt larger type or in Italics  then get
the lessees and sub lessees to initial that page (near the clause
<grin> ) Then at  time of signing mention it again and obtain a
required wavers (to later allow you to arrest aircraft in
Jurisdictions that are never happy when you arrive to chain the thing
to the ground)

When I was in finance land used this more than once to keep
recalcitrant borrowers on the straight & narrow  One Asian airline in
Particular  and the odd ships owners ------- but we kept our losses to
a minimum by keeping eyes on the Chief pilots and the companies
operations and service procedures  ( another finance device was fine
attention to detail on all matters MEL  (including the galleys and
toilets )  If you read this report  I picked up in my quick scan  that
they were certainly in breach on service  by not having the FDR and
CVR  broken pins fixed (I recall they replaced a part with an
incorrect part ) thus hobbling all the data collection which proves
that this particular golliwog airline  did not know in service areas
their bum from their elbow in the electronics testing area .

Given that the financiers are custodians not only of their
shareholders funds but required by law to protect their own assets in
a vigorous and fiduciary manner .
This is just one way (of many)  that Governments who wish outcomes can
use  methods available to them  in a manner that does not involve
other government diplomacy  avenues .

Given that Mac bank and NAB Westpac and ANZ  to name a few in oz have
exposure via syndicated loans via GECAS ( a syndicated loan is where
the prome lessor in effect lays of part of the risk on total
exposure ) We in oz if concerned can rattle certain cages via that
Avenue -------- However, other playes such as Singapore aircraft
leasing ,Moscow Novotney, Polaris investements, Trade CC and the like
would not give a rats  whether the hulls pranged or not as long as
they could ensure they were paid out after the fires died down and the
victims buried . Example to this contention are recent former soviet
states  writing off and killing heaps in AN12.s recently

Hopefully  ICAO professional pilots and Travel industry  groups said
to have some form of oversight (to various degrees) could influence
change by boycots as just one example  . Lenders could  hold off until
Garuda and its even more worrisome  new comer airlines  and some TRULY
worrisome  events in India & China   are playing with the same fire

Its  about finance and risk  right across the board . Example is the
Lenders as oppsoed to the beneficial owner operators of the aircraft
get (or should get by law) all  A D "s from the MFG's  a few  don't
and even more when they do  the   clerical dweebs  have not a clue
what to do or even worse the paperwork is overly broad at best or
totally useless by its ambiguity  at worst  -thus some operators this
very day are flying deficient aircraft or suffering deficient systems
(such as dud ops and service manuals)  and a lot of these aircraft fly
into Australia  Garuda  TG MH United  Chinese carriers (all of them)
just to name a few .

Also Qantas and others could in extreme instances be captured  by a
spot audit ( at least happily they are probably the bench mark along
with FinAir SAS and Royal Brunei) on paying  diligent attention to all
detail  there may be others but I have not been exposed to them when
in finance and other lands :)

One cheap Carrier that was truly impressive on attention to detail
given the lack of resources was Ryan air  pretty switched on mob and
good culture in some aspects
compared to others we had to deal with :(

One major airline we had "relations" with only bought new aircraft and
turned them over before D checks arrived  But the Chinese bean
counters run that airline and some very "interesting" glitches in the
servicing of aircraft  came to light  -example  screw jacks  NEVER
EVER greased  by the ground mechanics  if it meant indenting for
grease over the allotted allowance to that cost/ profit centre .
This translated to a pilot  grounding the aircraft in USA when he
spotted this fault
the poor bugger got carpeted BIG TIME when he arrived back at base ---
this particular airline still today  "chastises" such pilots  who
bring red ink into the equation
by fiddling with their rosters and bidding slots to  as one bean
counter in this airline said to us  ( keep them aware where the money
that goes into the pilots pocket comes from )        .

That particular pilot  now no longer flies for them  --- we in finance
land however, after we became aware of this type of practice  wrote
into loan docs  methods to
A -discover such practices  and B used them with vigour  to straighten
out the three main pencil necks who were more interested in their own
bonuses than the safe and efficient running  of this airline .

The industry imo is in a higher  degree  of risk  mainly because of
immature and and rapidly growing trends and less than robust oversight
or even awarness in many jurisdictions .

I sincerely hope that all who have any degree of influence  in the
industry  right down to the refuel bodies ramp rats and up to the
travel industry  THEN Governments all  adopt  that now is the time to
draw  a line in the sand (or across the tarmac) and re-examine how
their respective cultures can force less than competent or judicious
parties to improve this situation before it really gets out of hand
by its startling  growth

End of rant

To Paraphrase woody Allen in an aviation sense  I do not worry about
death (by an aircraft accident) I just do not want to be there when it
happens :)

Phil
Rob - 25 Oct 2007 03:26 GMT
>>Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180
>>@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

WOW Phil - that's full of home truths, some of which I can relate.

r

> I am more of a beige kinda fellah myself --------- what ever
> The subject is this awful and needless prang  and what amounts to
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
>
> Phil
Pits - 25 Oct 2007 05:06 GMT
> >>Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180
> >>@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
> WOW Phil - that's full of home truths, some of which I can relate.
>
> r

<grin> Rob those that DO know me  - know that when I stop acting the
goat  time to make sure everything is tickety boo :) Before I or my
"people" start sniffing about
But Dinkum  this accident is No surprise  only surprise is it is
fantastic luck that there are not more like them.

When about Medan ATC (used to not sure if they still do)  for example
had this unhappy propensity of turning folks onto a heading straight
at a bloody great hill  - not until you query them do they  get it
right and twig  that cumulo granatis is bad for your health .

But it can be addressed  but needs some real heavy handed action as it
appears all else is not working at the moment and the various
cultures  relating to aviation safety are self perpetuating  not just
in the Indon region but other places as well  even here to a much
lesser extent ------- buggered if I have the solution - :(

> > I am more of a beige kinda fellah myself --------- what ever
> > The subject is this awful and needless prang  and what amounts to
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
>
> > Phil
Rob - 25 Oct 2007 06:39 GMT
>>>>Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180
>>>>@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> goat  time to make sure everything is tickety boo :) Before I or my
> "people" start sniffing about

>>>One major airline we had "relations" with only bought new aircraft and
>>>turned them over before D checks arrived  

This is the one that I relate, a major carrier who fly into Australia
that does minimal maintenance just because they have new aircraft.

What would be interesting is to see how many aircraft get turned over
with those who keep buying new aircraft.  You see the bragging rights of
Airbus and Boeing on the order books, very little mention who buys the
old ones, and at what stage the aircraft are sold on.
Pits - 25 Oct 2007 07:44 GMT
> >>>>Pits <spamlis...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193239503.791720.160180
> >>>>@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Airbus and Boeing on the order books, very little mention who buys the
> old ones, and at what stage the aircraft are sold on.

Used aircraft Post D check are worth their weight in gold if D check
done properly  especially if you have to wait yonks for your new birds
to roll off a delayed production slot .
Also tired old girls  can be used to make a quid  if "nicked" at the
right price and  then on / x hired until hours /cycles expire  -then
do the d check and average out the total cost and often it comes up
cheaper than a damp or dry lease on same equipment  even if written
down to a $  then when on sold or traded in  the book profit is fruit
for the side board .

Some old MD 's are still mint even  approaching end of cycles  As are
some 747 example ex SAA and El Al  Qantas and  such  NOT MH or TG
(shudder)
Eva  etc   Yet although Alitalia were in dire financial straights some
of their aircraft were real  gems and a nick (even if we could not
exactly sort out the paperwork on a  couple of Loaner donks   but Air
NZ are also a nightmare along with others in that area. Most of the
yank paperwork is far easier  to back track  but not all

The aircraft paper and docs says one thing but the physical units  =
where the hell are they type of nightmare ( good inducement for
transparency when you are holding back on urgent funds)  Then the
Lawyers get all upset  /make more fees and yell at you = well boys and
girls   time for lunch  bye  see you when you find MY  equipment :)

Funny how it suddenly turns up -------------------------------
eventually  then you can be a real mongrel and say because of this
instance  might have another look at the deal  -for expediency  how
about another few $$$$ or we shall  keep soem back in a retention fund
just in case it is not all that it seems  - Oh and expect spot audits
in future  <grin>
However it the  client or proponent is gilt edged you do what you have
to to stop them off to another financier  <not grinning>

Finance houses are actually just big liars clubs  The clients lie the
lenders lie  the valuers lie the manufactures lie the Governments lie
actually blody frustrating now to do a decent old fashioned deal
------------- no hand shake  is worth the paper its written on  :
(

Back to old aircraft -------------- long may they live :) They have
excellent uses in the right hands and  a bit of nouce  sadly too many
clients fall in love  with their assets or dreams .At the extreme end
of the spectrum it gets folks killed or toasted or part of the
landscape ( lovely forensics when the pax become part of the hull )
and sorting out who is who Or what  (sad stuff REALLY)

Thus a percentage of such pain to all can be  changed if teh industry
bites the bullet in a unified collective manner . In the  end  bad
business will equate to no business if this keeps up .

There is an election here coming up  why not use  it for the benefit
of the industry ?

Cheers
Yagu - 25 Oct 2007 08:37 GMT
quote Pits

>When about Medan ATC (used to not sure if they still do)  for example
> had this unhappy propensity of turning folks onto a heading straight
> at a bloody great hill  - not until you query them do they  get it
> right and twig  that cumulo granatis is bad for your health .

end quote.

Pitsy, Interesting notes you make!

Was having a chat to a mate in Medan this morning, checking up if he's ok
after the shake last night and I mentioned the quote above. he tells me it
still happens, with boring (to them) frequency.
one query I have in relation to finance issues in say Indon, is how or who
reliably would you get in Indo to carry out a lock up, same say in Thailand
or Kampuchea? Given the nature of internal politics in all of these places
it would almost be impossible.

Given GECAS connection to AU Banking, wonder why not or indded if ever,
there has been a clause written in the agreements ensuring that Pilots who
do fly these leased AC are in fact sufficiently qualified to have an AU, UK
or US CPL endorsement.

regards

YaguMac
Yagu - 25 Oct 2007 13:31 GMT
Pits, following on from earlier posts, here's an interesting link:

http://www.globalaviationlaw.com/accident-comair.htm

note the blurb on Indon accidents ie Garuda and Adams

> quote Pits
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> YaguMac
Pits - 25 Oct 2007 17:48 GMT
> Pits, following on from earlier posts, here's an interesting link:
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> > YaguMac

G' evening
Jayzus mate    ---------- I know you have  a brain  ------ But the
link you posted is just septic tank ambulance chasing w.nk.

Re  the line of thought on Financiers -------------- its not the
licensing of the pilots  -------------- it is the letter of the
agreement and subtle and not so subtle weasel clauses to capture the
arse holes in the industry  most of who wear suites and the mortgage
belt Mothers wish their daughters to marry well :)

to put it in simple terms
1 Guys with $  deal with manufactures who  lend other guys with $ at
about 3% then the $ go through a 'washing macine" in USA called exim
bank that lends mFGS
via various means   'subordinated" tranches ,pledge lending non
recourse facilities ( tied to a gurantess proopeed up by uncle sam and
other bullshit) The Eu does same but with style :) and better
lunches :):):):) ( burp !!!
2 noddy airlines pays  consultants
3 banks pay more analysts
every one tries to pay a sling and not get caught  d(do this deal and
we give you a plum gilt edged one ) This with the oversight of the
grey men who are "involved" with various Governments  and coated with
teflon
4 golli wog airlines gets a shiny new toy  and every one hopes it
either pays its way or prangs so the production line gets a new slot
and the next airshow hospitality tent  needs extra  lubricant for the
various mutual masturbation societies and press releases  of Options
and undisclosed orders ( which often are blatant bullshit)

fly home go to lunch and let the back office sort out the details

The good bits  are you may get to jump the  seconded PA  air head  who
does not have a clue about being a PA  but has great tits and gives
good head if you financed the  bullshit order (no matter what weasel
clauses you wrote in )  :)  As long as it appeared in flight
international and the trade mags

Bit like politics really   eh :)
Yagu - 26 Oct 2007 02:36 GMT
Hahah, yep, I know it's w.nk Mate, thought it relevant though to an earlier
comment in relation to suing. It seems to me when one has yank w.nks like
this seeking to make a living out of less fortunates, then it's no wonder
that more often than not operators like garuda and other similarly shocking
carriers would just laugh at the suggestion of any retribution being
succesful!
Cheers for the photos of the 380 btw, the high resolution one is magic.

Yagu
>> Pits, following on from earlier posts, here's an interesting link:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>
> Bit like politics really   eh :)
RT - 26 Oct 2007 07:48 GMT
> The good bits  are you may get to jump the  seconded PA  air head  who
> does not have a clue about being a PA  but has great tits and gives
> good head if you financed the  bullshit order (no matter what weasel
> clauses you wrote in )  :)  As long as it appeared in flight
> international and the trade mags

Heh!   I knew bloody well you weren't in it for the money :-)
Rob Ford - 25 Oct 2007 06:30 GMT
> And so would you if you weren't too bone idle to get off
> your dumb fat @rse and do a little research yourself before
> showing your ignorance by badmouthing an essentially
> accurate report.

You’re quite a rude fellow, aren’t you Ned?

Obviously I searched the web first you fool but it yielded little more
than the ATC communications rather than the in-flight chatter that I was
after. I’ve managed to get a copy of the CVR that was extracted from the
damaged box in Canberra.

I don’t dispute that the report was quite accurate and informative
overall. Please make more of an effort to behave in a respectable fashion
buddy. You’re rudeness impresses nobody.



Signature

Posted at www.Usenet.com.au

Ned - 25 Oct 2007 13:09 GMT
>> And so would you if you weren't too bone idle to get off
>> your dumb fat @rse and do a little research yourself before
>> showing your ignorance by badmouthing an essentially
>> accurate report.
>
> You’re quite a rude fellow, aren’t you Ned?

Your crassness would easily trump my rudeness any time Rob.

> Obviously I searched the web first you fool but it yielded little more
> than the ATC communications rather than the in-flight chatter that I was
> after.

But it *DID* contain the exact information which you then
went on to accuse the journalist of misreporting.

And *you* have the nerve call *me* fool - BWAHAHAHA!

>I’ve managed to get a copy of the CVR that was extracted from the
> damaged box in Canberra.
>
> I don’t dispute that the report was quite accurate and informative
> overall.

Hang about - that is absolutely *NOT* what you said!!!!!

You characterised the journalist -  as a *liar*!!!!

I quote you directly - ""... as well as the copilot
screaming to the chief pilot to go around when the aircraft
first bounced off the runway."

Perhaps a little dramatic journaliar licence in this
sentence Yagu "

You went ahead and posted this malicious unfounded
accusation despite Yagu having already gently pointed out to
the resident anal propellor-head that the ABC had made a
fair fist of their report.

>Please make more of an effort to behave in a respectable fashion
> buddy.

You, of all people, Rob Ford, are hardly in any position to
discuss respectable behaviour.

> You’re rudeness impresses nobody.

Crassness trumps rudeness any day in my book boyo.

Crass enough to falsely accuse anybody of being a liar.

Doubly crass when the bloke's on the job credibility depends
on it.

And totally beyond contempt when you falsely and maliciously
accuse a bloke of being a liar in a fair and unbiased report
he filed about an accident in which an Indonesian cowboy
killed two of his close friends and colleagues.

Friends he last farewelled on the tarmac at Yogya as their
charred remains were loaded onto the RAAF Herc for the trip
home.

I think the reporter continues to do a very creditable job
under the circumstances and both you and Breach are nothing
short of a bloody disgrace.

Ned
Sylvia Else - 24 Oct 2007 13:56 GMT
>> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of the
>> aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Perhaps a little dramatic journaliar licence in this sentence Yagu :) Does
> anybody know if the voice recorder data is available for download?

If it's from the same site as the report, you'd finish downloading it
sometime next year.

The report says this final call to go around was made "with high
intonation." I suspect that's a euphemism that the journalist has
correctly translated.

> I personally can't imagine what drugs the Captain was on that caused him
> to continue such an unstable approach.

We'll presumably never know if he was. The report attributes his
behaviour to stress. It could well be so - stress makes people do
strange things, even if the stress is, as it was in this case, of their
own making.

Sylvia.
Ned - 24 Oct 2007 14:25 GMT
>>> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of
>>> the aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> intonation." I suspect that's a euphemism that the journalist has
> correctly translated.

Quite obviously.

Rob Ford and others would obviously prefer to gob off and
slander the journo and media report than do their own basic
research.
Pits - 24 Oct 2007 22:04 GMT
> >>> 'The copilot did not follow company procedures and take control of
> >>> the aircraft from the PIC and execute a go around...."
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> slander the journo and media report than do their own basic
> research.

Think  ( but not often)  that you may be a bit hard on a fellow
contributor  and I actually think the quality of posts in here are
improving .
To be blunt I never read he was gobbing off at a journo -------- My
bit on the journo in this case was he/she got it pretty well damn
close to the report I skimmed over ,
Struth if we all stressed over  pedantic aviation terms not a yank
would get a look in -because of such things as airplanes etc..

Further my take on this even at a quick rendang (reading)  of the
report was that the managment and ops folks of this carrier as well as
the crew and all who are said to have any form of oversight -should
all be hung out to dry

Whomever said that oz Govt should  speak up on the ops and situation
of Carriers  flying into & out of oz  with standards like this
---------- I agree 101 %

If they were as diligent on this kind of breach  as opposed to say
being late in/out on curfews   then I could reconcile some balance of
the overall system

Any way  whomever asked iv the CVR tapes were available   hope they
can understand the Bahasa and local idiom :)
Ned - 24 Oct 2007 13:30 GMT
> GB, the report , and I'm sure you have read it, says amongst other things,
> an I quote "
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Agree GB?

I think you've overestimated GB's intelligence/maturity Yagu
and have not recognized his total inability, without
the benefit of a prior TV doco to hold his hand, to offer
any meaningful analysis whatsoever of any aircraft accidents
at all.

In this case, if you care to reread below he had got no
further than seizing on the nameplate on the Garuda Chief
Pilot's door. Well Do'h

Instantly like many before him here, he couldn't prevent a
blind prejudice against journos stop him from making a
juvenile idiot of himself.

I'm sure the undergrads he mixes with think he's a hoot.

> Cheers,
> Yagu Mac
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>> GB
 
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