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Aviation Forum / Country Specific / Australian Group / November 2008FA to the Cockpit
Old story I know but ..... http://www.theage.com.au/travel/air-canada-flight-attendant-helps-land-plane-200 81120-6by3.html An Air Canada co-pilot had a mental breakdown and had to be forcibly removed from the cockpit, restrained and sedated, and a flight attendant helped the pilot make an emergency landing, an Irish investigation concluded Wednesday. The report by the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit into an incident in January applauded the decision-making of the pilot and the cockpit skills of the flight attendant, who stepped into the co-pilot's seat for the emergency diversion to Shannon Airport in western Ireland. <snip> The pilot then asked flight attendants to find out if any passenger was a qualified pilot. When none was found, one flight attendant admitted she held a current commercial pilot's licence but said her licence for reading cockpit instruments had expired. "The flight attendant provided useful assistance to the commander, who remarked in a statement to the investigation that she was 'not out of place' while occupying the right-hand seat," the report said.  SignatureDavid Varidel Some people say I suffer from A.D.D. but they.... OH look!! A chicken!! >The pilot then asked flight attendants to find out if any passenger was a >qualified pilot. When none was found, one flight attendant admitted she held >a current commercial pilot's licence but said her licence for reading >cockpit instruments had expired. Ah well here we go again! Has a valid commercial licence but not currently qualified to read cockpit instruments. Guess that she is however current to fly any aircraft that has no instruments. Ya gotta laugh!! Lew. Blame Canada! > Blame Canada! Surely it's Qantas' fault! SignaturePeter Degotardi peterdegYourHat@au1.ibm.com (remove YourHat to talk to me) IBM Australia I speak *from* IBM, not *for* IBM Peter Degotardi <peterdegYourHat@au1.ibm.com> wrote in news:0yHVk.207 $Et1.176@news-server.bigpond.net.au: >> Blame Canada! > Surely it's Qantas' fault! Qantas fly to Canada, don't they? GB SignatureMy friend Steve is an atheist. He has a bumper sticker that reads "Honk if you love Jesus". When someone honks, he gives them the finger. >> The pilot then asked flight attendants to find out if any passenger was a >> qualified pilot. When none was found, one flight attendant admitted she held [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > currently qualified to read cockpit instruments. Guess that she is > however current to fly any aircraft that has no instruments. The report itself says "one of the Cabin attendants held a Commercial Pilot’s Licence, with a Multi-engine Rating, and a non-current Instrument Rating." Given the general quality of media reporting of aviation events, it's probably too much to hope that they would understand what an Instrument Rating is, and perhaps also too much to hope that they would realise that they didn't understand, and ask someone. Where the alleged "admission" about having a CPL came from isn't clear, and the report indicates that what the captain actually asked was not whether any passenger was a qualified pilot, but whether any flight crew were on board - this to be determined from the passenger list, so presumably it related to flight crew employed by the airline. All in all, the media reporting was about par for the course. Shame that someone who has a CPL/Multi/IR has to earn her living as a flight attendant. Sylvia. >The report itself says "one of the Cabin attendants held a Commercial >Pilots Licence, with a Multi-engine Rating, and a non-current >Instrument Rating." That was exactly what I'd assumed it to mean.... >Where the alleged "admission" about having a CPL came from isn't clear, >and the report indicates that what the captain actually asked was not >whether any passenger was a qualified pilot, but whether any flight crew >were on board - this to be determined from the passenger list, so >presumably it related to flight crew employed by the airline. Sounds like a good guess....deadheading crew have been invaluable in other cases [The United 232 crash comes to mind..] in saving the day. >Shame that someone who has a CPL/Multi/IR has to earn her living as a >flight attendant. I don't know about your part of the world, but I'm not surprised at all at this; I bet established US cabin crew gets better pay than starting regional carrier pilots. The author of "Ask The Pilot" in Salon has commented on that. SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 I'm not too sure that I understand how much help this person would actually have been. Watching what they are doing might increase the workload. The aircraft are simple enough to operate solo. You just let the autopilot fly it and get radar vectors to a long final. Everything that you need is within reach. This scenario is practiced quite regularly. SignatureRead the latest aviation news at www.flight.org > I'm not too sure that I understand how much help this person would > actually have been. Watching what they are doing might increase the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fly it and get radar vectors to a long final. Everything that you need is > within reach. This scenario is practiced quite regularly. He appears to be following the advice given by Transport Canada in respect of pliot incapacitation in the document cited by the final report: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp11629/menu.htm "Would it be useful to have an assistant in the unoccupied seat? If another pilot is aboard, he or she may prove valuable, regardless of level of training. Tasks such as ATC communication increase during an emergency." But I take your point. Sylvia. > He appears to be following the advice given by Transport Canada in > respect of pliot incapacitation in the document cited by the final report: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > level of training. Tasks such as ATC communication increase during an > emergency." About all I can think of that they could do is provide a second set of ears for ATC comms. There is nothing in the cockpit that you'd want them doing, or that you would need them to do. ATC comms are actually simpler in an emergency. You declare one, them what you are going to do, and that's about the end of it. Unless pilots are familiar with the accents and 'style' of the various ATC agencies, even simple things like listening to clearances is problematic, so if your 'helper' is mishearing things, and you end up checking and asking for things to be said again, then the workload goes up. SignatureRead the latest aviation news at www.flight.org > About all I can think of that they could do is provide a second set of > ears for ATC comms. There is nothing in the cockpit that you'd want > them doing, or that you would need them to do. ATC comms are actually [...] Various works on leadership point out that (opinion) great leaders/ managers will attribute all success to others, and all failure to themselves. Self deprecation, etc, appropriately applied has the social effect of engendering respect for you in those around you. I suggest that might be closer to what's going on in this situation (though I'm not suggesting that it's likely to have been a calculated move). On the limited occasions (I avoid wherever I can) that I work as a manager of something or other, I'll always (naturally, not calculatedly) deflect all praise to my staff where I think it is deserved. They're young, building a career, I've already built mine (the current one anyway!), I genuinely like the people who work for me and often they do the bulk of the actual work anyway. I don't sit down and calculate how to award recognition to best effect, I just do it, it's the right thing to do. Perhaps In the same way that you're probably the only person who can't see that what you did with OJK was pretty special, this bloke was "just doing my job", and even if the FA only brought him a glass of water or mopped his brow, he views her efforts as beyond the call and credits her for her efforts. What this guy has achieved, intentionally or not, is a nice situation where the press has a catchy story and an opportunity to write nice things about him and his company, and even though it's fairly obvious that the FA probably did little or nothing, he's made himself look like a very nice bloke by attributing the 'success' to her. tl;dr: think image, not action! GB SignatureMy friend Steve is an atheist. He has a bumper sticker that reads "Honk if you love Jesus". When someone honks, he gives them the finger. Point taken. I was initially reluctant to comment at all, and perhaps I shouldn't have. SignatureRead the latest aviation news at www.flight.org > Point taken. > > I was initially reluctant to comment at all, and perhaps I shouldn't have. GB's point well explains the captain's comments and views about the FA. But it doesn't explain the captain's decision to involve her in the first place. That should be open to discussion, and those with relevant knowledge should feel able to discuss it. Sylvia. >> Point taken. I was initially reluctant to comment at all, and perhaps I >> shouldn't have. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sylvia. Are you being deliberately dense Sylvia?? After all it was you in this very thread that said this about his decision to put her in the cockpit "He appears to be following the advice given by Transport Canada in respect of pliot incapacitation in the document cited by the final report: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp11629/menu.htm "Would it be useful to have an assistant in the unoccupied seat? If another pilot is aboard, he or she may prove valuable, regardless of level of training. Tasks such as ATC communication increase during an emergency." But I take your point. Sylvia." Signature"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." Don Hirschberg >>> Point taken. I was initially reluctant to comment at all, and perhaps I >>> shouldn't have. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Are you being deliberately dense Sylvia?? > After all it was you in this very thread that said this about his decision > to put her in the cockpit [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Sylvia." The advice is expressed in terms of inviting the pilot to consider a particular option. While it's clear which way the writer is leaning, it doesn't say that the pilot must follow a particular course. That is down to a decision made by the pilot. I assume you would have realised that for yourself had you not instead been intent on insulting me. Sylvia. >>>> Point taken. I was initially reluctant to comment at all, and perhaps I >>>> shouldn't have. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Sylvia. What is clear is that you are often deliberately obtuse for the sake of creating a pedantic argument, if you see that as an insult then you have options, exercise them. Signature"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." Don Hirschberg > What is clear is that you are often deliberately obtuse for the sake of > creating a pedantic argument, if you see that as an insult then you have > options, exercise them. Stand by for pending accusation of 'ad hominem attack' AC :-) GB Signature.sig >> What is clear is that you are often deliberately obtuse for the sake of >> creating a pedantic argument, if you see that as an insult then you have >> options, exercise them. > > Stand by for pending accusation of 'ad hominem attack' AC :-) It's clear that you can recognise one when you see it. Sylvia. > What is clear is that you are often deliberately obtuse for the sake of > creating a pedantic argument, if you see that as an insult then you have > options, exercise them. I don't see an argument here, pedantic or otherwise. Can we not dicuss a topic without it having to be an argument? A discussion raises issues for people to consider and comment on. There may be no right or wrong answers that are capable of being argued about. Sylvia. > Are you being deliberately dense Sylvia?? Yes, she is. That's what Sylvia/Zak does. GB Signature.sig > Point taken. > I was initially reluctant to comment at all, and perhaps I shouldn't > have. I'm sorry if that sounded like I was trying to score points or was somehow having a go at you. I'm absolutely not trying to do either. Just trying to offer an alternative point of view. I'll be the first to admit that the POV I've offered still doesn't answer the fundamental question of "why get the FA up there in the first place". Best, GB Signature.sig On Nov 21, 5:52 am, > > He appears to be following the advice given by Transport Canada in > > respect of pliot incapacitation in the document cited by the final report: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > -- > Read the latest aviation news atwww.flight.org At least if the remaining FIT pilot (flying pilot) is suddenly incapacitated some one is there near the comms at least > I'm not too sure that I understand how much help this person would > actually have been. Watching what they are doing might increase the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that you need is within reach. This scenario is practiced quite > regularly. But what if the autopilot loses air pressure? :) >> I'm not too sure that I understand how much help this person would >> actually have been. Watching what they are doing might increase the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >But what if the autopilot loses air pressure? :) Use the same technique as if the A/P lost fuel pressure, oil pressure, water pressure or peer pressure. Greg. >> The report itself says "one of the Cabin attendants held a Commercial >> Pilots Licence, with a Multi-engine Rating, and a non-current [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > regional carrier pilots. The author of "Ask The Pilot" in Salon has > commented on that. Sorry, David, I somehow missed your reply earlier. I can't imagine that anyone gets a CPL/Multi/IR just for the hell of it, given the cost and effort required to do so. Such a person must surely want to work at the sharp end of aviation. It may well be that she earns more as a cabin crew attendant than she could as a pilot, but in that case, the implication is that what she could earn as a pilot simply isn't enough to support her and whatever liabilities (children, useless husband) she may have. Aren't regional airlines short of pilots in Australia? Sylvia. >I can't imagine that anyone gets a CPL/Multi/IR just for the hell of it, >given the cost and effort required to do so. Such a person must surely >want to work at the sharp end of aviation. My friend shellEy did just that, and also got a seaplane rating to boot. Her only 'business' potential was she was an hopeful astronaut candidate years back. One reason was by getting a new rating; she didn't need a BFR. In the US at least, a Commercial is not all that rare or hard; many get same with an Instrument rating. ISTM mostly it needs hours, as does an Instrument rating. Multi is less common, but there were a lot of twins out there. >It may well be that she earns more as a cabin crew attendant than she >could as a pilot, but in that case, the implication is that what she >could earn as a pilot simply isn't enough to support her and whatever >liabilities (children, useless husband) she may have. Well, here's what Pat Smith said: <http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2007/12/21/askthepilot258/index1.html> My own story is fairly typical. I have been a professional pilot, beginning as a flight instructor, since 1987. Only once have I made more than $60,000 in a year, and often it has been substantially less. I've been through two airline bankruptcies, two furloughs and one complete company shutdown. (When changing carriers, salary is not transferable; one begins at the bottom again at probationary pay and benefits. At a major, that's about $30,000. At a regional, it's often under $20,000.) Things are better now, and assuming my current employer remains stable and solvent in the years ahead (by no means a sure thing), I will be lucky enough to enjoy a six-figure income. Will that make me "overpaid"? ... A fifth-year CRJ-900 captain at Mesa Airlines (dba US Airways Express and other affiliations) earns $69 per flight hour. ... For the year, that first officer's salary will be roughly $18,000. Don't let those hourly rates mislead you. Sixty-nine bucks an hour sounds pretty good, until you remember that crews are paid only for the time they actually fly, not the time spent on duty, at the airport preparing for departure, laying over in hotels, etc. A pilot might be on assignment for as many as 300 hours in a given month, but the average pay credit is in the vicinity of 75. This disparity is what spawns those foolish contentions that pilots "work" far less than the typical full-time employee. SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 > My own story is fairly typical. I have been a professional pilot, > beginning as a flight instructor, since 1987. Only once have I made [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I will be lucky enough to enjoy a six-figure income. Will that make me > "overpaid"? It's puzzling in a way. The pilot's salaries clearly don't represent that large a part of the overall operating costs, but cancelling flights due to a lack of pilots damages an airline's image, and can surely result in people electing to travel by other means which, though they may take longer, are at least more certain to operate. A juxtaposition of low salaries and a pilot shortage doesn't appear to make economic sense, and suggests a structural flaw in the industry. Sylvia. >>The pilot then asked flight attendants to find out if any passenger was a >>qualified pilot. When none was found, one flight attendant admitted she held [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Ya gotta laugh!! and more so at the headline on yahoo7 today: "Air hostess lands plane". > Old story I know but ..... > > http://www.theage.com.au/travel/air-canada-flight-attendant-helps-land-plane-200 81120-6by3.html FWIW, downloading the report from the Irish Air Accident Invetisgation Unit's website has proved troublesome, so now that I've managed, I've put a copy here: members.optusnet.com.au/sylviae/faInCockpit.pdf Sylvia. > Old story I know but ..... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > skills of the flight attendant, who stepped into the co-pilot's seat for > the emergency diversion to Shannon Airport in western Ireland. Regarding this story of a pilot having a "mental breakdown", I met Bryan Griffin (ex QF 747-200 Pilot) last year and had quite a long discussion regarding what happened to him. I don't know if his story has ever been discussed in this form, I wont elaborate as I'm sure Google will suffice if you need more info, as it's rather complex. But what really left a cold chill with me was the possibility that if something really goes wrong up front how catastrophic it could be. Lucky when looking at probabilities the likelihood of this happening while I was a pax would be very remote....hopefully ! >Old story I know but ..... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >from the cockpit, restrained and sedated, and a flight attendant helped the >pilot make an emergency landing, an Irish investigation concluded Wednesday. I have watched this thread with some interest and it concerns me that not one of you has actually realised what happened to the poor First Officer. In all likelihood the poor bugger suffered a stroke. this is just a blood clot that obstructs flow to a part of the brain and can lead to the death of the brain tissue affected and loss of that part of the mental functioning. the thing I find really troubling is that permanent damage could have been prevented but that his treatment on removal from the cockpit probably ensured that he suffered permanent damage. what the guy needed, *was* removal from the cockpit because of his confused state, remember if you ever see this that the guy isnt bunging on an act, he really is confused and nothing is making sense to him, his sense of threat and danger is probably ramped up to quite high levels. what he also needed was an injection of an anticoagulant like heparin. chances are that this is never carried on aircraft so a quick and ready alternative is 3 aspirin under the tongue. the secondary effect of aspirin is to interfere with the coagulant pathways in the blood. this gives the anticoagulant factors in the blood stream a chance to act on the clotting and it is this which could have prevented the guy having anything more than a thumping headache in the long term. what would cause a stroke in someone who just passed an aviation medical and was deemed fit? a blood clot. what can cause a blood clot? whenever blood achieves stasis (lack of motion) the clotting factors kick in. in aviation there are two contributing factors that are common to the environment. dehydration and immobility. these two factors conspire together and can kill *any* otherwise healthy pilot. (pilots *have* died from this) dehydration reduces the fluid volume of the blood and causes it to thicken (become more viscous). immobility reduces the blood flow speed, this combined with more viscous blood in a dehydrated person, can lead to periods of stasis in the peripheral limbs leading to clots. our spleen filters out most clots but those making it to the brain or heart can cause incapacity and even death. I left the link to the newspaper article in the quote above. read it again. it is clearly describing someone suffering the onset of a stroke. remember if you ever see this in real life that what the person needs in an injection of an anticoagulant. they need to be anbulanced to hospital pronto! if the only thing available to you is aspirin, then 3 under the tongue will do a pretty good job for the person. (note it is not any over the counter pain killer, it is ASPIRIN!!!!) oh that and drinking a litre of water. just hope that it never happens to any of you. Stealth Pilot >>Old story I know but ..... >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > In all likelihood the poor bugger suffered a stroke. <snip> My not have been that bad, Pilot "was taken to the psychiatric unit of a nearby hospital and remained there for 11 days before returning to Canada with his wife, who had joined him in Ireland. He is recovering, said the report" more here http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/11/19/aircanada-report.html?ref=rss Your comments are extremely valid about the affects of dehydration & mobility, I experienced an incident myself, it wasn't pleasant. Don't forget about the affect to the kidneys. MikeZ > Your comments are extremely valid about the affects of dehydration & > mobility, I experienced an incident myself, it wasn't pleasant. Don't > forget > about the affect to the kidneys. > MikeZ And a very big thanks from me, Stealth, for your comments. A fairly clear difference between signal and noise. SignatureCheers Dave Kearton >In all likelihood the poor bugger suffered a stroke. >what he also needed was an injection of an anticoagulant >like heparin. chances are that this is never carried on aircraft so a >quick and ready alternative is 3 aspirin under the tongue. Should the ill and at that time undiagnosed FO actually have been suffering from a cerebral heamorage. Would you also advise flight crew to prescribe Heparin or Asprin both of which would produce the opposite effect to the one desired. Reg. >>In all likelihood the poor bugger suffered a stroke. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Reg. in an emergency reg you takes your chances. I'm not advising flight crew to prescribe anything. what I'm saying is that that is the treatment for a stroke. if you understand the aviation environment your red herring of cerebral haemorage is out there in la la land. the most common problems *are* the most common. stealth pilot Airline crews are able to get inflight medical advice. Company is called Medlink, and can be contacted via satphone or HF. SignatureRead the latest aviation news at www.flight.org >Airline crews are able to get inflight medical advice. Company is called >Medlink, and can be contacted via satphone or HF. A heart transplant surgeon I know complains bitterly about the limited contents of the on-board med kits. After one encounter with same; he now always carries his own stock of what he thinks might be needed, just in case he's involved in another incident.... SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 >>>In all likelihood the poor bugger suffered a stroke. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >>Reg. >in an emergency reg you takes your chances. True! Hopefully by chance you receive the appropriate treatment. >what I'm saying is that that is the treatment for a stroke. True, along with other comments. >I'm not advising flight crew to prescribe anything. Considering that there was mention that the chances are that Heparin is never carried on an aircraft lead me to the implication that it is considered that it should be. Naturally to be of use someone needs to decide to use then administer it, should there be no doctor aboard there is not many choices other than the crew. >if you understand the aviation environment your red herring of >cerebral haemorage is out there in la la land. the most common >problems *are* the most common. >stealth pilot Interesting! Red herring? Aviation environment? La la land? Strokes, acute heart conditions, cerebral heamorages (and the list goes on) can occur regardless as to whether the individual is sleeping at onset, occupying the right front seat of an aircraft or undertaking any other human endeavour. Reg. >Interesting! Red herring? Aviation environment? La la land? Strokes, >acute heart conditions, cerebral heamorages (and the list goes on) can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Reg. agreed. particularly as you age. there is nothing guaranteed in life but by hell it is fun while it lasts. :-) Stealth Pilot |
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