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Aviation Forum / Country Specific / Australian Group / February 2010Should pilots with driving convictions be allowed to fly?
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 Some obscure (to me, at least) org claiming to represent flying public says that it's a disgrace. Personally I think that flying and driving are two separate activities. And as they said in the article, to make a pilot lose his livelihood on something that he did in a car is a bit harsh. Those who rely on their driving licences and get done for speeding, drink driving or whatever will suffer the consequences as their licences are lost. That much is accepted. But if the offences are not work related then why should they apply? I'll be that the fellow who made that statement would be back peddling if he were to lose his job if he was done for something similar.  SignatureThe only difference between the wingnuts on each end of the political spectrum is *which* civil rights they think we can do without Maybe, if penalties for drink driving were actually harsh, then maybe less people would do it. How would you feel if the drunk driver got out of his car into a plane. I don't know but maybe if you lost a loved one to a drunk driver, you may look at it differently. But that's just my opinion. It doesn't mount to much yet . > http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > he > were to lose his job if he was done for something similar. > Maybe, if penalties for drink driving were actually harsh, then maybe > less people would do it. How would you feel if the drunk driver got [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > may look at it differently. But that's just my opinion. It doesn't > mount to much yet . If a drunk driver got out of his car and into a plane, he would be breaking the laws relating to the operation of his pilots license and should lose his job anyway, but the debate is relating to pilots flying whilst sober, but who have had drink driving convictions. Crash Lander -- > http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'll be that the fellow who made that statement would be back peddling if he > were to lose his job if he was done for something similar. In the interests of consistency, if pilots are to be grounded as a result of a drink driving charge, then we should also prevent anyone else from exercising their profession if alcohol consumption could realistically compromise their performance in a way that endangers other people. Off hand: Surgeons. Ferry Masters. Civil Engineers. Train Drivers. Signalmen. Air Traffic Controllers. Traffic light repairers. No doubt others could think of many more. Sylvia. > Off hand: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Sylvia. I think you will find that from your list Ferry Masters, Train Drivers and Air Traffic Controllers are already covered by such legislation. Certainly AT Controllers, operating in a safety sensitive role in aviation must now comply with CASA's DAMP system. This also includes anyone crossing a hangar floor, so this responsibility affects everyone in aviation including cleaners. Just see what happens next time a DAMP testing officer turns up a positive result to a test. You will be immediately suspended. >> Off hand: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > time a DAMP testing officer turns up a positive result to a test. You > will be immediately suspended. Certainly I'd expect such people to get into trouble if they test positive on the job. But this thread is about whether people who've tested positive while driving (driving not being part of their job) should also be deprived of the right to exercise their profession. Sylvia. > Certainly I'd expect such people to get into trouble if they test > positive on the job. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sylvia. I understand the thread, but I was responding to your statement "then we should also prevent anyone else from exercising their profession if alcohol consumption could realistically compromise their performance in a way that endangers other people. " And to your list. >> Certainly I'd expect such people to get into trouble if they test >> positive on the job. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > other > people. " But not the immediately preceding words "if pilots are to be grounded as a result of a drink driving charge" apparently. Sylvia. >>> Certainly I'd expect such people to get into trouble if they test >>> positive on the job. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Sylvia. How often pilots at Bankstown ever tested for Drugs (never?) Where I work its at least once a year usually twice on top of around 3 times a year by Police while driving Petzl -- Our parliaments need to obey our Constitutions, the judiciary must apply the law "Dieu est mon droit" > How often pilots at Bankstown ever tested for Drugs (never?) > Where I work its at least once a year usually twice on top of around 3 > times a year by Police while driving > Petzl Petzl, I think you'll find that DAMP Testing officers have probably tested a number of pilots at Bankstown by now. Certainly we (maintenance) have had our second round of drug and alcohol testing last week. > How often pilots at Bankstown ever tested for Drugs (never?) > Where I work its at least once a year usually twice on top of around 3 > times a year by Police while driving > Petzl > -- In your case, they've got the wrong testing officers - should be men with a white coat that fastens at the rear. >> How often pilots at Bankstown ever tested for Drugs (never?) >> Where I work its at least once a year usually twice on top of around 3 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >In your case, they've got the wrong testing officers - should be men >with a white coat that fastens at the rear. You think instead of my neighbour it was me they were after? Petzl -- The National Security Hotline Terrorism 1800 123 400 > > On Feb 8, 1:46 pm, Sylvia Else<syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Sylvia. Sylvia, that's not exactly how your paragraph reads, but I accept your intent. > http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'll be that the fellow who made that statement would be back peddling if he > were to lose his job if he was done for something similar. Car drivers already lose their licenses for convictions that have nothing to do with driving so I would not put anything past apparatchiks with power. >> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Car drivers already lose their licenses for convictions that have > nothing to do with driving Are you sure? A person can lose their licence as a result of not paying fines that have nothing to do with driving, but that's a bit different. so I would not put anything past apparatchiks > with power. Sylvia. >>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Sylvia. Thought a new law in Victoria was "smoking with a child in a car" 3 points - seems you can lose your licence for smoking. May have mis-heard the news clip. Cheers, >>>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > May have mis-heard the news clip. > Cheers, <http://www.vic.gov.au/news-detail/new-smoking-bans-in-cars-from-1-january-to-pro tect-children.html> Possibly a mishearing, or misunderstanding. The penalty units referred to in the link translate into the amount of the fine (done that way to avoid having to formally amend vast amounts of legisation regularly due to inflation) - they're not points for the purpose of licence revocation or suspension. I haven't found any reference to associated points. Sylvia. >>>>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Sylvia. Ahh, thanks - the reporter said points not units - journo error. Cheers, Sylvia Else wrote... > Are you sure? A person can lose their licence as a result of not paying > fines that have nothing to do with driving, but that's a bit different. Examples? > Sylvia Else wrote... > >> Are you sure? A person can lose their licence as a result of not paying >> fines that have nothing to do with driving, but that's a bit different. > > Examples? Almost any non-paid fine or penalty in NSW can have this outcome: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/fa199669/s65.html Sylvia. >> Sylvia Else wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Sylvia. It happened to me. Returning to Sydney after living overseas for 5 years, the RTA refused to renew my (now expired) driver's licence. They offered no explanation just gave a phone number to ring. This turned out to be the Office of state Revinue, and I found out that my wife and I had been fined in absentia for not voting in an election a couple of years previously (in spite of letting the Electoral Office know that we would be out of the country indefinitely). It took a couple of days of running around, getting Stat Decs etc to sort the mess out. It was probably good that the licence had expired otherwise it is possible that I could have ended up in court for driving on a cancelled licence. >>> Sylvia Else wrote... >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > possible that I could have ended up in court for driving on a cancelled > licence. In the light of your posting I did some searching around. The government's clearly put a lot of thought into how to make people pay fines, but little thought into how people who are just going about the lawful lives should avoid the situation you found yourself in. Though in your case, you advised the Electoral Office (it's not clear whether you used their form), but still had issues. There appears to be no government published check list on what to do when you move either interstate or abroad, but I did find this, which might be useful to people: http://www.afra.com.au/Files/Move%20Planner.pdf Sylvia. >Sylvia Else wrote... > >> Are you sure? A person can lose their licence as a result of not paying >> fines that have nothing to do with driving, but that's a bit different. > >Examples? The West Australian Police minister.... ;) Cheers, Paul Saccani, Perth, Western Australia >http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I'll be that the fellow who made that statement would be back peddling if he >were to lose his job if he was done for something similar. where the medical standard used for the pilot certificate is based on the holding of a driving licence, the loss of the driving licence has always resulted in the loss of the basis for the certificate. one of the benefits of the ICAO pilots licence is that the medical basis is not connected with the driving licence. Stealth Pilot > where the medical standard used for the pilot certificate is based on > the holding of a driving licence, the loss of the driving licence has [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Stealth Pilot What pilot certificate is dependent on holding a drivers licence? With RAA, the mewdical requirement is that your health meets the requirements necessary to hold a car driver's licence. there is no stipulation that you must in fact hold one. Crash Lander -- >> where the medical standard used for the pilot certificate is based on >> the holding of a driving licence, the loss of the driving licence has [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >stipulation that you must in fact hold one. >Crash Lander should you lose your car licence on medical grounds..... Hmm ... this could be a problem - http://www.buzzfeed.com/lebuzzodrome/pilot-lands-on-road-after-engine-failure-a- true-9ht Signaturehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ipvdBnU8F8 - KRudd at his finest. "The Labour Party is corrupt beyond redemption!" - Labour hasbeen Mark Latham in a moment of honest clarity. "This is the recession we had to have!" - Paul Keating explaining why he gave Australia another Labour recession. "Silly old bugger!" - Well known ACTU pisspot and sometime Labour prime minister Bob Hawke responding to a pensioner who dared ask for more. "By 1990, no child will live in poverty" - Bob Hawke again, desperate to win another election. "A billion trees ..." - Borke, pissed as a newt again. "Well may we say 'God save the Queen' because nothing will save the governor general!" - Egotistical shithead and pompous fuckwit E.G. Whitlam whining about his appointee for Governor General John Kerr. "SHUT THE f.ck UP YOU DUMB c.nt!" - FlangesBum on learning the truth about Labour's economic capabilities. "I don't care what you f.ckers think!" - KRudd the KRude Rat at his finest again. "We'll just change it all when we get in." - Garrett the carrott >>> where the medical standard used for the pilot certificate is based on >>> the holding of a driving licence, the loss of the driving licence has [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >should you lose your car licence on medical grounds..... Are you sure you understood your own statement? You claimed that an advantage of an ICAO license was that it wasn't dependant on holding a drivers license. This is a nonsense. The fact is, you can't legally use your Australian ICAO license if you know you are not medically fit to drive. It is also a notifiable occurence. Cheers, Paul Saccani, Perth, Western Australia Crash Lander wrote... > What pilot certificate is dependent on holding a drivers licence? What's the min. age that you can get a pilot's licence, these days? It used to be 16, didn't it? If so, then that's under the age for a car licence in most states. > Crash Lander wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It used to be 16, didn't it? If so, then that's under the age for a > car licence in most states. Yes, it's 16, but the requirement is for a health level satisfactory to be able to drive a car, nothing stated about legally being able to drive a car. Crash lander -- >where the medical standard used for the pilot certificate is based on >the holding of a driving licence, the loss of the driving licence has >always resulted in the loss of the basis for the certificate. If you are thinking of the RAA PIlot's certificate, it isn't based on the holding of a drivers license at all. Loss of a drivers license has no effect on an RAA Pilot's certificate. As is the case with never holding a drivers license. The actual requirement is in Section 2.07 of the operations manual; ************* 1.b. sign a declaration to the effect that their health standard is equivalent to that required for the issue of a private motor vehicle driver's license in Australia. ************ Instructors have several different requirements, but again, no drivers license is required. >one of the benefits of the ICAO pilots licence is that the medical >basis is not connected with the driving licence. That would be a non-existent benefit as far as I can tell. I welcome information on a place were this is the case. Cheers, Paul Saccani, Perth, Western Australia "Marts Farts " > http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dui-pilots-lose-drivers-licenses-but-can -still-fly/story-fn32891l-1225826182769 > > Some obscure (to me, at least) org claiming to represent flying public > says ** Not hard to track them down; http://www.iapa.com/index.cfm/travel/footer.about_iapa 45 years in business, 400,000 members ain't so obscure. Bit like a motoring association ( eg the NRMA ) for frequent flyers. ... Phil |
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