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Aviation Forum / General / Homebuilt / February 2010Glaze Ice
I did an Oxford instrument ground school long ago. One of the weather topics was glaze ice. This was described as extremely dangerous, in that supercooled rain could impact and flow to a glassy ice layer over the wing in seconds, which tended to pull the aircraft down pronto. In the last three days, I actually witnessed an event. It was a ground forecast of "freezing rain". It was devastating. As you know, most of the US distributes power almost entirely on overhead lines. In the local (SW Oklahoma) counties, there are trees quite close to power lines. Tree branches sagged to the ground in minutes and the majority shed limbs into the road and onto power lines before your eyes. Many power poles could not hold up the half-inch coat of ice on the lines, in a moderate crosswind and splintered - often a half dozen in a row. One county (Harmon) estimated about 3 to 4 weeks to repair the 2000 or so power lines that were down on broken poles before electric power could be restored there. For people who are used to living in Tornado Alley and don't easily shock - this was a new one on them! There was a rush on motor generators. There was no gasoline to be had for a day or more after, til the generator sets were set up at strategic gas stations to serve huge lines of customers. Some small towns are reporting sewage farm pump failures, others say went drinking water pump stations out. The local AM radio station used for emergency reporting, went out after a while - its antenna was glazed, which mismatched the transmitter, which then fried. The city set up strategic industrial generator sets - of which the smartest siting after the water and sewage utilities, was at a 24 hour diner - where the utility crews could go to rest and eat. Moral: If you fly into glaze ice, fly down or fly up, but fly OUT quick as you can! Brian W > Moral: If you fly into glaze ice, fly down or fly up, but fly OUT quick > as you can! True for all types of icing. >> Moral: If you fly into glaze ice, fly down or fly up, but fly OUT quick >> as you can! > > True for all types of icing. which reminds me... ALL take-offs are optional. Landings are not.  SignatureRichard Lamb Fly out of it.. if you fly into it.. turn around.. it was warmer where you were before.. If it's supercooled rain.. then it is warmer above.. where the rain formed.. try to climb into warmer air. > Moral: If you fly into glaze ice, fly down or fly up, but fly OUT quick as > you can! > > Brian W How about get a decent weather forecast before you go flying and don't even think about trying to fly in this kind of weather? In article <d3fdfb1b-7f7f-40ae-9735-85b9cb159680 @k18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, waveguru@charter.net says... > How about get a decent weather forecast before you go flying and don't > even think about trying to fly in this kind of weather? Correct but we still remain humans who make mistakes. 02/01/2010 Maria Cornelis (76 year of age, 30 years a pilot) took off from EBUL (Ursel Airport) in Belgium in her own C172 OO-TRB. She was accompagned by the president of the local flying club, to which she also belonged. Maria was looked at as expermented and carefull frequent flyer. TAF EBOS (Ostend Airport is some 30 NM away) was METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095 TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012= 8 planes took off that afternoon from EBUL: 5 returned and landed without problems, 2 landed on another airfield. OO-TRB crashed around 10 minutes after TO in the woods about 1 km from EBUL. 2 fatalities. Tom De Moor > In article <d3fdfb1b-7f7f-40ae-9735-85b9cb159680 > @k18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, waveguru@charter.net says... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095 > TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012= OK sure - but one should surely reading something more into that temp and dew point. Too close for me. What do others think? SignatureDuncan. > > METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095 > > TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012= > > OK sure - but one should surely reading something more into that temp > and dew point. Too close for me. What do others think? SHSNRA Showers Snow Rain. In our club are now two camps: 1 person, convinced that dry snow will not cause freezing ice and all the rest who don't know the differance by sight between a cloud full of dry snow or freezing rain and who will chicken out by not flying through. I am with the rest ;-) Where is the summer staying? Tom De Moor On Feb 2, 7:38 am, Tom De Moor <vipereng...@removethis.gmail.com> wrote: > In article <MPG.25d257c7dfe8da9d989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > h...@work.ok says... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Tom De Moor With nearly a lifetime of flying real IFR in light aircraft, I've found almost all generalities about ice accumulating on aircraft to be wrong on occasion. Ultimately, you get what you get. If you have a well thought out escape route, you'll probably survive. If not..... Examples: Ice CAN accumulate in clear air. It's usually Graupel but can be just very light supercooled mist. Neither block visibility enough to be easily seen from a distance. The kind of freezing rain described by the first poster is rare but almost always fatal to an aircraft. As a result there are few 1st person stories of encounters with freezing rain. The only real ice removal strategy for aircraft is to find warm air - FAST. De-Ice equipment just buys a little time. Simply recording temperature layers while climbing has saved me several times. Usually, but not always, if the air temperature is -10C or lower, virtually all supercooled water droplets have already frozen out and the resulting snow will just bounce off the airplane. I've seen significant ice at -30C. Icing is always worse over mountains. It's amazing how much ice you can pick up flying through a cooling tower plume. In article <138c6dc9-ee47-45c4-8033-6e8906aae222 @g28g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, bildan@comcast.net says... > With nearly a lifetime of flying real IFR in light aircraft, I've > found almost all generalities about ice accumulating on aircraft to be > wrong on occasion. Ultimately, you get what you get. If you have a > well thought out escape route, you'll probably survive. If not..... I am with you. Concerning the accident of 02 jan (EBUL, OO-TRB) the PIC had 30 years of VFR-experience but how much in marginal VFR, how much in icing conditions? VFR-pilots - I am one- tend to be 'good weather'-pilots. We get close to no prolonged icing conditions in our region, so accidents happened when even carburrettor icing was not detected by the pilot untill he smashed his (school)Cessna to the ground. Not pointing a finger: it might happen to any privat pilot but the person concerned will sure not feel good afterwards. http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/data/aero/accidents/AA-8-2.pdf But sometimes it must be admitted that some errors or misconceptions are very very hard to understand. On top of that: this is the age of you tube and other video sites... http://airsafety.info/wp/?p=138 'What's that beeping? I get the plane down quickly...' Tom De Moor > Ice CAN accumulate in clear air. It's usually Graupel but can be just > very light supercooled mist. Neither block visibility enough to be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > almost always fatal to an aircraft. As a result there are few 1st > person stories of encounters with freezing rain. Let me relate an iceing story that happened to me. I was on a cross country in my PA 140 across the cascades. The weather was clear, the winds calm. The temp was well below freezing. As I let down on the west side of the mountains I encountered scattered clouds with light showers. The temp. was well above freezing. After landing at Longview I pulled up to the fuel pump to top off the tanks for the return flight. To my surprise the fuel tanks were covered in ice. The fuel had retained the cold temps enough to freeze the light rain showers contacting the tank area. I felt no loss of lift as the rest of the wing was clear. I wondered what the outcome might have been with a large leading edge tank. Ed Like me, You may have missed Rogallo's obit late last year. He died near the first flight site in North Carolina. How appropriate! He gave his Rogallo patents to the Country at the time of Sputnik. His design gave birth to hang-gliding, ultra lights, powered parachutes, Light Sport Aircraft and a new birth of enthusiasm for flying (just) in reach of the average person. Francis Rogallo - 2009 Brian W > Like me, You may have missed Rogallo's obit late last year. > He died near the first flight site in North Carolina. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Brian W Thank you for this posting, it motivated a search http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/05/us/05rogallo.html more at http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Francis+Rogallo&btnG=Google+Search&meta= &aq=f&oq=&fp=7564381002806979 Happy landings, > > > METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095 > > > TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012= [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Showers Snow Rain. Yeah, but it's broken at 1200'. So I wouldn't be flying in it (who would?). I'm far more concerned about the possibility of fog and carb icing due the dew-point and temp. If the WX deteriorated to IMC I'd be on the ground already. If the plane and pilots are IMC/IFR (and it was me), I wouldn't fly in that - not in a 172 with no de-icing. > In our club are now two camps: 1 person, convinced that dry snow will > not cause freezing ice and all the rest who don't know the differance by > sight between a cloud full of dry snow or freezing rain and who will > chicken out by not flying through. > > I am with the rest ;-) I on your side on that. > Where is the summer staying? Pretty nice in NZ at the mo, 20C here at present. SignatureDuncan. > Fly out of it.. if you fly into it.. turn around.. it was warmer where you > were before.. > If it's supercooled rain.. then it is warmer above.. where the rain formed.. > try to climb into warmer air. Wrong. Buy a plane that has a de-icer. They are only $500,000 or so. SignatureMark inventor/artist/pilot/guitarist/scientist/philosopher/ scratch golfer/cat wrangler and observer of the mundane. And much much more including wealthy beyond anything you can imagine. My website http://www.hosanna1.com/ www.myspace.com/gayincarolina > Wrong. > > Buy a plane that has a de-icer. They are only $500,000 > or so. Deicing equipment protects you while you find your way out of icing conditions. It does not allow you to fly through icing conditions indefinitely with impunity. >> Wrong. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > conditions. It does not allow you to fly through icing conditions indefinitely > with impunity. Shutup, I'm a pilot, you're not. They even allowed me to skip the 40hrs minimum rule. SignatureMark inventor/artist/pilot/guitarist/scientist/philosopher/ scratch golfer/cat wrangler and observer of the mundane. And much much more including wealthy beyond anything you can imagine. My website http://www.hosanna1.com/ www.myspace.com/gayincarolina OK... So you are a pilot, and Mx is not? Okay.. good point.... But in this case, Mx is right, and you are wrong. Better go back and get the full 40 hours..... Here is the class you missed...... ------------------------------------------------------ Expected ice, stay out! Unexpected ice, turn on everything you have on board, including your brain, and get out of it! NOW! If you are REALLY a bright light, you will already know where the warmer air is and you better get there! If you don't, you have no business being there. YOUR problem, unless you have pax. Then you just killed them as well. $50 thou plane or $500 thou plane, you are just as dead in either one. Ice has brought down multi million $$ planes. ----------------------------------------------------------- Mx obviously has this information, and now you do. What you choose to do with it is up to you. Oh yea, I am a pilot, 30 yrs now. And in this climate (-24C here tonight) my 30 years of winter flying is NOT one years experience 30 times.... Cheers! Fly safe Dave 00 thou planeOn Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:32:08 -0500, Mark <blueriverday@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> Wrong. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Shutup, I'm a pilot, you're not. They even allowed me to skip the 40hrs >minimum rule. > OK... > > So you are a pilot, and Mx is not? Just FYI, you are responding to a troll that hangs out in rec.aviation.piloting and many other groups. The perp can be IDed by viewing all headers of a post and looking for an "X-Authenticated-User" header, and if it has one, has the following value: X-Authenticated-User: $$gwx18quhxz9-wu_g$qv3bkmank > Just FYI, you are responding to a troll that hangs out in > rec.aviation.piloting and many other groups. Whatever you might call me, the fact remains that I'm right. If you disagree, try a flight through continuous icing conditions, and make me a liar. >>Just FYI, you are responding to a troll that hangs out in >>rec.aviation.piloting and many other groups. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you disagree, try a flight through continuous icing conditions, and make me > a liar. It depends upon the airplane, Mr. Microsloft Simulator "pilot." Some of us are actually pilots, and some of us flew both light airplanes and big jet airliners with hot wings and all that good stuff, which can easily handle light to moderate continuous icing conditions. Sam Spade wrote > It depends upon the airplane, Mr. Microsloft Simulator "pilot." Some > of us are actually pilots, ........ Sam, I am sure that you are well aware that the FAA does not require a person to be a pilot in order to hold a Ground Instructor or Instrument Ground Instructor Certificate. In fact, my first instrument instructor in the good ole Link Trainer had never set foot inside an airplane. While is is true that MX is usually off base when trying to provoke an argument amongst the pilots here, his lack of a pilot certificate does not mean that he does not posses any aeronautical knowledge. I'm not supporting MX, just pointing out that "you're not a pilot" is not a valid counter to his sometimes misguided assertations. Bob Moore AGI IGI > It depends upon the airplane, Mr. Microsloft Simulator "pilot." No, it doesn't. Do it and post the video to YouTube, and make me a liar. > Some of us are actually pilots, and some of us flew both light > airplanes and big jet airliners with hot wings and all that good > stuff, which can easily handle light to moderate continuous icing > conditions. If you can keep the icing light, which you have no way of doing. >>It depends upon the airplane, Mr. Microsloft Simulator "pilot." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If you can keep the icing light, which you have no way of doing. What part of "light to moderate" don't you understand? > What part of "light to moderate" don't you understand? All of it. It's the unspoken "to severe" part that worries me (although moderate can be bad, too). >>What part of "light to moderate" don't you understand? > > All of it. It's the unspoken "to severe" part that worries me (although > moderate can be bad, too). How many times have you operated jet transports into a place like Chicago O'Hare (KORD) when ATC has you slowed down to 160 knots and number 20 in line for the approach in light to moderate icing conditions? Heavy icing conditions are quite unusual except during freezing rain or sleet. No air carrier is allowed to operate in or out of an airport reporting heaving freezing rain. Of course you knew that. > How many times have you operated jet transports into a place like > Chicago O'Hare (KORD) when ATC has you slowed down to 160 knots and > number 20 in line for the approach in light to moderate icing conditions? I stay away from parts of the U.S. that have Siberian weather patterns. And I avoid flying on commercial flights in poor weather, because I know that airlines push the envelope. > Heavy icing conditions are quite unusual except during freezing rain or > sleet. No air carrier is allowed to operate in or out of an airport > reporting heaving freezing rain. Of course you knew that. Yup. Then again, sometimes you find out about freezing rain by flying through it. How many encounters have you had with freezing rain? >>How many times have you operated jet transports into a place like >>Chicago O'Hare (KORD) when ATC has you slowed down to 160 knots and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > How many encounters have you had with freezing rain? Plenty, but it's never been heavy, which was not allowed. And, if it was icing up the runway we went somewhere else. Often though, you would fly out of it prior to the airport. >> Just FYI, you are responding to a troll that hangs out in >> rec.aviation.piloting and many other groups. > > Whatever you might call me, Whoever you are, you need to improve your reading comprehension since nothing in my post or its context indicates I was talking about you or your previous post. > Whoever you are, you need to improve your reading comprehension since > nothing in my post or its context indicates I was talking about you or your > previous post. So whom were you talking about? >> Whoever you are, you need to improve your reading comprehension since >> nothing in my post or its context indicates I was talking about you >> or your previous post. > > So whom were you talking about? All the information you need to answer that trivially simple question is already available. > All the information you need to answer that trivially simple question is > already available. If it's trivially simple, you can answer it in fewer words than it took to avoid answering. >> All the information you need to answer that trivially simple question is >> already available. > > If it's trivially simple, you can answer it in fewer words than it took to > avoid answering. Trolls Are Attracted To Idiots; Idiots Respond to Trolls Agreed Jm... I am aware of that. But sometimes, when I see correct information challenged by others (troll or not) someone has to register their support for the correct information, if for no other reason to insure that new pilots/subscribers do not see the wrong info go unchallenged. Here we are talking about ice. This is important. It is DEADLY. You often don't know you have a proplem until it is too late. There is an early (VERY early) "point of no return". In this case , MX's comments were correct. HOW he got his information, is not relevent... I learned, (was taught) BEFORE I became a licenced pilot. One does not HAVE to be a pilot and be lucky enough to "escape" icing to be knowledgable about it. The NASA engineer who wrote that very comprensive paper about icing was not a pilot either, but he has probably forgotten more about it than most "pilots" will ever know. So, a feeble attempt to correct.. Yea, I kow about these guys, - I have been a subscriber to this group since 1992, but mostly lurk now... Tonight it is up to -20C here... A heat wave! :) Cheers! Dave >> OK... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >X-Authenticated-User: $$gwx18quhxz9-wu_g$qv3bkmank > HOW he got his information, is not relevent... I learned, (was > taught) BEFORE I became a licenced pilot. One does not HAVE to be a > pilot and be lucky enough to "escape" icing to be knowledgable about > it. The NASA engineer who wrote that very comprensive paper about > icing was not a pilot either, but he has probably forgotten more about > it than most "pilots" will ever know. Yes. Some of the stuff from NASA is extremely interesting. >>HOW he got his information, is not relevent... I learned, (was >>taught) BEFORE I became a licenced pilot. One does not HAVE to be a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yes. Some of the stuff from NASA is extremely interesting. He was working in an environment with seasoned test pilots and had access to controlled icing experiments. He wasn't pulling his observations out of his backside. > He was working in an environment with seasoned test pilots and had > access to controlled icing experiments. He wasn't pulling his > observations out of his backside. But he and I agree. So I cannot be wrong if he is right. >>He was working in an environment with seasoned test pilots and had >>access to controlled icing experiments. He wasn't pulling his >>observations out of his backside. > > But he and I agree. So I cannot be wrong if he is right. You're missing the point. You have no experience flying a real airplane, not even student pilot pre-solo training. So, you can't possibly know about the variables of serious instrument flying, which has one set of skill requirements and operating limitations for light aircraft IFR, and a different but related skill set and operating limitations for flying transport jet aircraft. And, you don't have a support system of highly trained and experienced test pilots; which wouldn't do you any good in any case. The gentleman to which you refer had a full team of technical experts and equipment for testing and experimentation. And, he brought considerable academic credentials to the table. I am sure he would be thrilled to learn that you agree with him, for he could rest knowing that the world's greatest PC pilot has validated his work. > >>He was working in an environment with seasoned test pilots and had > >>access to controlled icing experiments. He wasn't pulling his [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You're missing the point. You have no experience flying a real > airplane, not even student pilot pre-solo training. As I've just said, since I agree with him, I cannot be wrong if he is right. Either we are both wrong (unlikely given his research and experience), or we are both right (much more probable). It doesn't matter what experience I have with a real airplane. I got my knowledge from him. He is a much more reliable source than you are. And the information in question is unrelated to real flying experience, anyway. Pilots can fly a real airplane for decades without ever understanding how icing works ... until they get stuck in it, and then it's too late. > So, you can't possibly know about the variables of serious instrument > flying ... You're wasting a lot of time concentrating on the poster rather than the post. What I say is either right or wrong. In this case, since I merely echo what all the experts say, inevitably I am right. Quarreling with me simply because you cannot separate your personal animosity towards me from objective reality is counterproductive and immature. The facts remain the same. Icing is bad. > I am sure he would be > thrilled to learn that you agree with him, for he could rest knowing > that the world's greatest PC pilot has validated his work. I suspect that he might not have his judgement clouded by the same preoccupation with personality that appears to be afflicting you. I'm tired of accommodating your issues. Unless you are willing to discuss only the topic of the thread, rather than me, my interaction with you has ended. >>>>He was working in an environment with seasoned test pilots and had >>>>access to controlled icing experiments. He wasn't pulling his [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > I'm tired of accommodating your issues. Unless you are willing to discuss only > the topic of the thread, rather than me, my interaction with you has ended. Your personality IS the issue. You are so full of sh.t. Sam.. Do you remember that guys name? I would like to find that article again... Dave >>>HOW he got his information, is not relevent... I learned, (was >>>taught) BEFORE I became a licenced pilot. One does not HAVE to be a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >access to controlled icing experiments. He wasn't pulling his >observations out of his backside. > Sam.. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 01:41:49 -0800, Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> I have view the NASA tail plane film but not read the author's work. That is Maniac's claim. > I did an Oxford instrument ground school long ago. > One of the weather topics was glaze ice. This was described as extremely [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Brian W I was attending a AOPA sponsored CFI renewal clinic in Albuquerque (1986) when an example was given of how fast clear ice could form on a supercooled airframe in a very short time. A DC-3/C-47 was landing in the Pacific Northwest. (Washington or Oregon) They were clear of ice until inside of the outer marker. The ice formed so fast that adding full power only slowed their sink rate. They crash landed short of the runway and the rescue crew had to use fire axes to get the flight crew out. The ice was over 1/4 inch thick over the entire airplane. Assuming a 120 mph approach speed and a distance between 3 to 4 miles from the outer marker to the runway threshold the entire event took less than two minutes. I have been searching for information but have not found anything so far. Since this was part of the course I wonder if anyone else might recall the story? SignatureA man is known by the company he keeps- Unknown Anyolmouse There are many stories like this, and they are to be heeded... I listened to a pilot tell his story about landing with 1/4 inch of ice on his Archer... 10 Years later, telling his story, his hands were shaking... He oviously did everything right, and was very lucky he was within the range of a long runway, as he was decending 300 fpm at full power! Burned it on at 90 knots, no flaps. I had no idea a Cherokee could fly at all with that much ice... The speed with which it can accumulate is legendary. Cheers! Dave >> I did an Oxford instrument ground school long ago. >> One of the weather topics was glaze ice. This was described as [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >far. Since this was part of the course I wonder if anyone else might >recall the story? |
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