Commercial 250nm VFR flight - all 3 landings on the same day?
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Peter - 16 Dec 2006 08:21 GMT I cannot find an answer on the FAA Q&A site (the one with the personal login, but which in fact appears to be rather bare), so I wrote to them. However they often don't reply with anything meaningful, so I would appreciate any references anybody here can dig out.
I am doing the CPL in the UK and the CFI says that it all needs to be done on the same day. The winter weather here is dreadful and doing a ~ 600nm trip (there and back) under VFR is quite difficult, unless I skirt around the coastline at low level, on autopilot, all the way to Scotland. I have the IR also but can't really do it that way :) It's also a waste of a lot of fuel for what might be a pointless logbook entry.
This is what I wrote to them:
**************
I am doing the FAA commercial certificate, and need guidance on the 250/300nm VFR solo flight with three landings.
I have about 700 hours and have flown all over Europe, and have lots of flights in my logbook which are along the lines of
500nm 500nm 2 days' stop 500nm 500nm
Some get closer to a 1-night stop:
25/8/03 EGBW LFBT 544NM 26/8/03 LFBT EGBW 26/8/03 EGBW EGKB
or are much longer than 300nm GC distance:
31/8/03 EGKA LFBZ 444NM 31/8/03 LFBZ LEAX 417NM 3/9/03 LEAX LFBZ 3/9/03 LFBZ EGKA
and some have a number of landings but never 3 on the same day:
12/9/04 EGKA LSZG 374NM 12/9/04 LSZG LSPV 59NM 16/9/04 LSPV LSGS 16/9/04 LSGS LSPV 17/9/04 LSPV LGKR 690NM 18/9/04 LGKR LGST 23/9/04 LGST LGKR 24/9/04 LGKR LFKB 25/9/04 LFKB EGKA
etc
I cannot find a flight which has all 3 landings on the *same* day.
Also, is it necessary for all 3 landings to be at different airports?
**************
Recently, somebody sent me this, purporting to come from John Lynch himself, but I cannot find an online reference to it. I have tried googling on various verbatim phrases from it but nothing turns up.
>>Quote: >>QUESTION: A question has come up regarding § 61.129(a)(4)(i) from an >examiner in our district. >> >>A private pilot conducted a cross-country flight from Pompano, Fl to >Virginia making ONE stop in South Carolina. He stayed overnight visiting friends >and the next day he returned to Florida using the reverse route. He now wants >to apply this cross-country flight to meet the requirement for § >61.129(a)(4)(i). >> >>The questions are: 1) If this is one flight, how many days can elapse and >still be counted as one flight? i.e. one night, three nights, 2 weeks, 1 >month, etc? >> >>ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129(a)(4)(i) and § 61.1(b)(3)(ii); Yes, it is a good >cross-country. This cross-country can be counted for § 61.129(a)(4)(i) purposes >and also for § 61.65(d)(1) purposes. > >>If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from Pompano, Florida to >Virginia and return is a . . . cross-country flight of not less than 300 >nautical miles total distance. And the first stop in South Carolina is . . . >at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the >original departure point (i.e., Pompano, Florida). And the cross-country >flight involved . . . landings at a minimum of three points . . . (i.e., >airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano, Florida). Yes, the landing on >the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one of the 3 landings. >>{Q&A-433} Peter. -- Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail. E-mail replies to peter240@peter2000AB.co.uk but remove the A and the B. Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary.
Jim Macklin - 16 Dec 2006 13:40 GMT The long flight does NOT have to be on the same day, it is acceptable to have a stop, but it must be as it says below [regulation] landings at three places, with one a straight line of 250 NM. I would log the flight as stages, with the citation of 61.129 in the remarks, with notes that it was a continuous trip, with stops at three airports. This may have already been meet with you previous experience. I would endorse you on the trips you listed, but the issue is what the designated examiner wants. Ask your CFI who he would send you to for the test and then both of you should speak to the eaxminer. But nowhere in the regulation does it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight line from the departure, you should be OK. Be sure the flights are SOLO, no passengers allowed, no dual allowed. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14 tab_02.tpl § 61.129 Aeronautical experience. (a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least-
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least-
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
|I cannot find an answer on the FAA Q&A site (the one with the personal | login, but which in fact appears to be rather bare), so I wrote to [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] | >>If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from Pompano, Florida to | >Virginia and return is a ". . . cross-country flight of not less than 300
| >nautical miles total distance." And the first stop in South Carolina is ". . .
| >at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the | >original departure point" (i.e., Pompano, Florida). And the cross-country
| >flight involved ". . . landings at a minimum of three points . . ." (i.e.,
| >airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano, Florida). Yes, the landing on | >the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one of the 3 landings. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | E-mail replies to peter240@peter2000AB.co.uk but remove the A and the B. | Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary. Bill Zaleski - 16 Dec 2006 15:07 GMT Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return to the original starting point, .
>The long flight does NOT have to be on the same day, it is >acceptable to have a stop, but it must be as it says below [quoted text clipped - 210 lines] >| Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT >necessary. Jose - 16 Dec 2006 15:59 GMT > The flights do not have to be on > the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is > not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return > to the original starting point, . The flight is not over until you say it's over. There is no definition of "flight", and therefore you can declare a single "flight" to be whatever combination of legs you want it to be. This is supported by the FAA FAQ.
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Peter - 16 Dec 2006 16:06 GMT >The flight is not over until you say it's over. There is no definition >of "flight", and therefore you can declare a single "flight" to be >whatever combination of legs you want it to be. This is supported by >the FAA FAQ. Do you have a URL to this FAQ? That's what I need.
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 17:01 GMT > Do you have a URL to this FAQ? That's what I need. The faq is difficult to find, and may not even be up any more. It seems the FAA can make up its own rules as it goes along.
I have a copy of the FAQ for part 61, REVISION #17, DATE: AUGUST 22, 2002 INCORPORATING Q&A #s: 471-522 WITH ALL PREVIOUS Q&As 1 - 470
MAINTAINED BY ALLAN PINKSTON PILOT EXAMINER STANDARDIZATION TEAM, AFS-640 Contact: Allan Pinkston phone: (405) 954 - 6472 E-Mail: K.Allan.Pinkston@faa.gov
I can send it to you if you like.
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Chris - 16 Dec 2006 16:13 GMT > Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on > the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is > not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return > to the original starting point, . where does it say you have to return to the original starting point? For example taking a plane from Niagara Falls to Providence Rhode Island with stops at Rochester Pittsfield and Barnes should do the trick.
Bill Zaleski - 16 Dec 2006 16:25 GMT You are correct. There is no requirement to return to the original starting point. The FAQ's did state though, that when/if you do return to the original point of departure, the flight is considered completed.
I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any more. Pretty stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability.
>> Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on >> the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >example taking a plane from Niagara Falls to Providence Rhode Island with >stops at Rochester Pittsfield and Barnes should do the trick. Jose - 16 Dec 2006 17:06 GMT > I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone > wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any more. Pretty > stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability. Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Bill Zaleski - 16 Dec 2006 22:02 GMT I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough, who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about 6-8 months ago, recinding the memorandum that is at the top of the last FAQ revision (#22). It effectively said that the FAQ's are no longer policy and that was the reason for the removal of them from the FAA site.
Too bad that the FAQ's were the best thing we had, and the feds chose to replace them with nothing but the suggestion to make inquiries to the FSDO.
>> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone >> wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any more. Pretty [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Jose Jose - 16 Dec 2006 22:17 GMT > I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough, I gotta get me one of them.
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Bill Zaleski - 17 Dec 2006 03:41 GMT >> I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough, > >I gotta get me one of them. > >Jose I just erased it a few weeks ago, or I would post it, sorry.
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 02:30 GMT http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough, | who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about 6-8 months ago, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | > | >Jose Bill Zaleski - 17 Dec 2006 03:44 GMT Jim: Is there something in particular in this link that I am missing?
> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/ > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >| > >| >Jose Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 04:10 GMT Yes, it is the "book" that tells an FAA Inspector (General Aviation) how to do every task they do and since it is on-line they stopped the other letters.
| Jim: Is there something in particular in this link that I am missing? http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
| >|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from | >Mr. Ballough, [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] | >| > | >| >Jose Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 04:13 GMT http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/
| Yes, it is the "book" that tells an FAA Inspector (General | Aviation) how to do every task they do and since it is | on-line they stopped the other letters. | || Jim: Is there something in particular in this link that I | am missing? http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
|| >"Bill Zaleski" <wrz@instrumentratings.com> wrote in | message [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] || >| > || >| >Jose Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 04:12 GMT closer http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/
| Jim: Is there something in particular in this link that I am missing? http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
| >|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from | >Mr. Ballough, [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] | >| > | >| >Jose Jose - 17 Dec 2006 05:45 GMT >> Where did they say it's "no good anymore"? > http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/ There are over 20 PDF files on that link. It's a good site, but none of them (by their titles) give me a clue as to rescinding the FAQ. Which one is it? (so I don't have to download and read 20 PDFs)
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 10:56 GMT I haven't downloaded all of them either.
| >> Where did they say it's "no good anymore"? http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
| There are over 20 PDF files on that link. It's a good site, but none of | them (by their titles) give me a clue as to rescinding the FAQ. Which | one is it? (so I don't have to download and read 20 PDFs) | | Jose Jose - 17 Dec 2006 17:42 GMT > I haven't downloaded all of them either. Ok, in which one did you read that the FAQ is no longer valid?
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 18:08 GMT None, that wasn't my point in posting the link. Having those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded, you have the direct source.
|> I haven't downloaded all of them either. | | Ok, in which one did you read that the FAQ is no longer valid? | | Jose Jose - 17 Dec 2006 20:18 GMT > None, that wasn't my point in posting the link. Having > those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded, you > have the direct source. I disagree. The FARs should make the FAQ unnecessary, but that obviously isn't the case. And the point wasn't that the FAQs were "unneeded", it was that they "no longer mirror the FAA policy", implying that the policy changed, or that the answers in the FAQ are now incorrect.
It is good to have these Inspector manuals available however.
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 20:40 GMT The FAR makes a lawyer necessary, they are written by lawyers.
|> None, that wasn't my point in posting the link. Having | > those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded, you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | | Jose Peter - 16 Dec 2006 16:08 GMT >But nowhere in the regulation does >it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs >longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight >line from the departure, you should be OK. Thank you Jim - but where is the requirement for all legs to be over 50nm?
When I did the IFR x/c for the IR, we did the flight with an initial 250nm leg and then flew to a nearby airport to achieve the three different IAPs.
In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be done at the same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure.
BT - 16 Dec 2006 17:11 GMT In the US,
Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm
Distance and landings: 61.129(a)(4)(i), "SOLO" One "flight" or Trip, of at least 300nm with landings at a minimum of three points, at least one landing 250nm straight line from the original departure point
To meet this requirement I flew from Lea Vegas NV, to Mesquite (NE of Las Vegas) to "stage the aircraft" and there declared the beginning of my trip. I flew from Mesquite to Leverne-Brackett CA (my first landing) and had a late breakfast with friends at the airport. From there to Gillespie Field in SanDiego CA to meet another friend. Gillespie is more than 250nm straight line from Mesquite and my second landing. I then refueled and returned to Las Vegas (VGT) NV, more than enough distance for my 300nm total required and my 3rd landing. At that point I declared my "trip" complete for the requirement of 61.129(a)(4)(i)
BT
>>But nowhere in the regulation does >>it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be done at the > same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure. Peter - 16 Dec 2006 17:45 GMT >Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm Yes, the first leg has to be >250nm but I can't see a requirement for the subsequent legs to be >50nm.
I know a x/c flight is anything over >50nm with the departure and destination being different places, but I don't see how this applies to this flight.
It certainly isn't standard practice even in the USA, where I did my IR.
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 17:57 GMT >>Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm > Yes, the first leg has to be >250nm but I can't see a requirement for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > destination being different places, but I don't see how this applies > to this flight. It is not the first leg that has to be >250nm. At least one landing has to be more than 250 nm from the original point of departure. The other legs, it appears, can be any length.
> I know a x/c flight is anything over >50nm with the departure and > destination being different places, No, for this purpose x/c means the departure and destination have to be more than 50 nm apart. You can't just fly >50nm and land right next door, and call it a x/c for purposes of meeting commercial requirements.
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
BT - 16 Dec 2006 18:01 GMT the first leg does not have to be >250nm for 61.129, but only one landing of at least 3 different points at least that distance from the original starting point
In the original post, you asked where the Cross country distance definition was, it is 50nm and is in 61.1, this is primarily geared to those that may only make lots of 30nm trips from "home" and want to count the x-c time towards a rating.
you can log anything you want as x-c, but to count it toward a rating, it needs to be at least 50nm
I did not say that each leg had to be 50nm, if you wanted, you could land 16 times, every 25miles as long as you finally got 250nm from where you declare the start point and then head back.
I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night you can continue on the next day or 3 days later.
Just as long as you are SOLO.
BT
>>Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It certainly isn't standard practice even in the USA, where I did my > IR. Jose - 16 Dec 2006 18:08 GMT > I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one > day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night > you can continue on the next day or 3 days later. > > Just as long as you are SOLO. It doesn't even have to be continuous, or in the same airplane. You can fly somewhere solo, fly some friends around (separate flight), and then fly somewhere else again solo (continuing the original flight, land, switch airplanes, fly to a third place (continuing the original flight)... You have a lot of latitude in what you consider a "flight".
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Jim Macklin - 16 Dec 2006 18:16 GMT It helps to mark the flights in your logbook that are used to meet certain requirements. When then FAA looks at a logbook for an ATP or a DE looks during the PP and CP, they often ask, which/when did you log the time for some "special" flight. It saves time if you have some reference to the regulation or at lest a mark of some sort.
|> I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one | > day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | | Jose Peter - 16 Dec 2006 20:09 GMT >It doesn't even have to be continuous, or in the same airplane. You can > fly somewhere solo, fly some friends around (separate flight), and >then fly somewhere else again solo (continuing the original flight, >land, switch airplanes, fly to a third place (continuing the original >flight)... You have a lot of latitude in what you consider a "flight". Yes, The FAQ which you kindly emailed me contains this bit
>QUESTION: A question has come up regarding § 61.129(a)(4)(i) from an examiner in our district. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from Pompano, Florida to Virginia and return is a ". . . cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance." And the first stop in South Carolina is ". . . at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point" (i.e., Pompano, Florida). And the cross-country flight involved ". . . landings at a minimum of three points . . ." (i.e., airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano, Florida). Yes, the landing on the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one of the 3 landings. >{Q&A-433} which is pretty clear.
Amazingly, an awful lot of people on the FAA instruction scene take a different view.
This may seem strange to Americans but pilots doing FAA certificates/ratings outside the USA are doing them under a regime where you never know which US$500/checkride DPE you are going to get, or indeed if one will turn up at all when you have done your training.
I did my IR in Arizona for this reason, but examiners are again becoming available outside the USA which is why I am trying to do the Commercial stuff here.
Chris - 17 Dec 2006 22:29 GMT > This may seem strange to Americans but pilots doing FAA > certificates/ratings outside the USA are doing them under a regime [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > becoming available outside the USA which is why I am trying to do the > Commercial stuff here. In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going 250nm from the start point. It invariably means its an international trip or over a lot of water.
I manage to squeeze my in by a trip from Southend to Lands End and back to Elstree via Plymouth and Henstridge.
The thought of having to go to France or across to Ireland was too much and the weather was too bad for Scotland (and that would have meant Glasgow.
When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see the problem.
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 23:26 GMT That's why Hawaii has an exception.
| > This may seem strange to Americans but pilots doing FAA | > certificates/ratings outside the USA are doing them under a regime [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] | | When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see the problem. Peter - 18 Dec 2006 17:57 GMT >In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going 250nm from the >start point. It invariably means its an international trip or over a lot of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see the problem. True.
I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm. Then one has to do 2 more landings somewhere, and I guess landings at the same airport don't count (though the reg doesn't prohibit them).
Or one could do it coming back to the UK; one could land at Southend, then Lydd, then Shoreham for example. Done.
There is absolutely no doubt that most American based DPEs would accept my own x/c flights which are much longer e.g. http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/corfu/whole-trip.gif but the CFI I've got has so far refused. These were with a passenger though (which the FAQ - if not the FAR - rules out) but I have http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/leax/route1.gif and back which was solo.
As I say, this is the joy of doing a US commercial cert outside the USA :)
Chris - 19 Dec 2006 00:41 GMT >>In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going 250nm from the >>start point. It invariably means its an international trip or over a lot [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/leax/route1.gif > and back which was solo. Dublin gives a water crossing that's why I did Southend to Lands End via Plymouth then back to Elstree via Hens.
The interesting conundrum I had was about getting back late i.e. after sunset. The FAR requires the trip to be done VFR but there is no night VFR in the UK. Its either SVFR or IFR. SVFR only counts in controlled airspace. So try explaining that we can fly IFR without an instrument rating to a DPE. The issue is VMC and IMC as much as VFR and IFR. The difference is subtle but there is a big difference.
BTW, The FAR makes it clear it has to be solo.
Jose - 19 Dec 2006 03:05 GMT > I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if > one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm. IF this is for the US certificate, then you don't have to bend the legs. Just land. Then take off and fly another 26 nm in any direction and land. Now you've flown more than 300 nm. Satisfy the other criteria and you're done.
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Chris - 19 Dec 2006 19:01 GMT >> I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if >> one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jose Duff trip that one anyway with the need to comply with the Terrorism Act on a trip to Ireland. Much better going to France where that does not apply.
Peter - 20 Dec 2006 11:52 GMT Is it OK to fly > 300nm and then do three landings at the *same* airport?
Jim Macklin - 20 Dec 2006 12:11 GMT No, three [ or more] different airports. § 61.129 Aeronautical experience. (a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least-
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least-
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least-
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least-
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least-
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
| Is it OK to fly > 300nm and then do three landings at the *same* | airport? Jim Macklin - 16 Dec 2006 18:10 GMT FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country. %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond 26 NM requires student pilots to be endorsed for X-C.
Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a first leg of 51 NM and be followed by a landing every 5 miles for three hundred miles and they'd all be X-C creditable toward X-C requirements, but the LONG CROSS-COUNTRY requires a single 250 mile leg between landings, the required number of landings in the C-X section should be a different airports.
| >But nowhere in the regulation does | >it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be done at the | same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure. Jose - 16 Dec 2006 18:47 GMT > Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a first > leg of 51 NM... Where is it that the =first= leg is the one that has to be >50nm?
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
BT - 16 Dec 2006 18:53 GMT > FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country. > %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > single 250 mile leg between landings, the required number of > landings in the C-X section should be a different airports. Where does it say a "single 250nm leg"? I say.. 61.129 does not, It says a trip of at least 300nm with 3 landings and one landing at least 250nm straight line from the starting airport.
BT
Chris - 17 Dec 2006 22:33 GMT >> FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country. >> %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I say.. 61.129 does not, It says a trip of at least 300nm with 3 landings > and one landing at least 250nm straight line from the starting airport. Jims making it up as he goes along
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 23:30 GMT 61.129 (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
The intention us a single long leg, not 25 ten mile hops.
| >> FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country. | >> %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | | Jims making it up as he goes along Jose - 17 Dec 2006 23:57 GMT > 61.129 > (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > The intention us a single long leg, not 25 ten mile hops. I don't see that intent there. IN fact, I see an intent to =allow= a series of ten mile hops.
"landings at a minimum of three points" (there could easily be more landings) and "one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles" (not "one leg at least 250 miles long").
I imagine (and this is my imagination, not an FAA statement) that the intent is to show competence in navigation, weather decisionmaking, and ability to operate away from familiar surroundings, all of which are important.
Jose
 Signature "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Jim Macklin - 18 Dec 2006 01:53 GMT I suggest you call the nearest FSDO or the FAA in OKC and ask them, I have.
|> 61.129 | > (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | | Jose BT - 18 Dec 2006 03:09 GMT >I suggest you call the nearest FSDO or the FAA in OKC and > ask them, I have. I don't need too make a phone call, I've already completed the commercial requirements, my instructor approved the flight, the DPE accepted the flight.
I "repositioned" from North Las Vegas NV to Mesquite NV, landed and declared the start of my 300nm x-c. I landed at Leverne Bracket CA for breakfast with friends, I landed at Gillespie Field in SanDiego for a late lunch with another friend and refueled, more than 250nm from Mesquite and then I returned to VGT.
More than 300nm trip from Mesquite to Leverne to Gillespie to North Las Vegas, and 3 landings (Leverne, Gillespie and North Las Vegas) and more than 250nm to the farthest distant airport, (Mesquite to Gillespie).
Requirement complete and within the scope of the FAR 61.129
BT
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