Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
AviationLearningIFRHomebuiltSoaringUltralightRotary-wing
Country Specific
Australian GroupUK Group
Related Topics
BoatsCarsMotorcyclesMore Topics ...

Aviation Forum / General / IFR / December 2006



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Commercial 250nm VFR flight - all 3 landings on the same day?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Peter - 16 Dec 2006 08:21 GMT
I cannot find an answer on the FAA Q&A site (the one with the personal
login, but which in fact appears to be rather bare), so I wrote to
them. However they often don't reply with anything meaningful, so I
would appreciate any references anybody here can dig out.

I am doing the CPL in the UK and the CFI says that it all needs to be
done on the same day. The winter weather here is dreadful and doing a
~ 600nm trip (there and back) under VFR is quite difficult, unless I
skirt around the coastline at low level, on autopilot, all the way to
Scotland. I have the IR also but can't really do it that way :) It's
also a waste of a lot of fuel for what might be a pointless logbook
entry.

This is what I wrote to them:

**************

I am doing the FAA commercial certificate, and need guidance on the
250/300nm VFR solo flight with three landings.

I have about 700 hours and have flown all over Europe, and have lots
of flights in my logbook which are along the lines of

500nm
500nm
2 days' stop
500nm
500nm

Some get closer to a 1-night stop:

25/8/03 EGBW LFBT 544NM
26/8/03 LFBT EGBW
26/8/03 EGBW EGKB

or are much longer than 300nm GC distance:

31/8/03 EGKA LFBZ 444NM
31/8/03 LFBZ LEAX 417NM
3/9/03 LEAX LFBZ
3/9/03 LFBZ EGKA

and some have a number of landings but never 3 on the same day:

12/9/04 EGKA LSZG 374NM
12/9/04 LSZG LSPV 59NM
16/9/04 LSPV LSGS
16/9/04 LSGS LSPV
17/9/04 LSPV LGKR 690NM
18/9/04 LGKR LGST
23/9/04 LGST LGKR
24/9/04 LGKR LFKB
25/9/04 LFKB EGKA

etc

I cannot find a flight which has all 3 landings on the *same* day.

Also, is it necessary for all 3 landings to be at different airports?

**************

Recently, somebody sent me this, purporting to come from John Lynch
himself, but I cannot find an online reference to it. I have tried
googling on various verbatim phrases from it but nothing turns up.

>>Quote:
>>QUESTION: A question has come up regarding §  61.129(a)(4)(i) from an
>examiner in our district.
>>
>>A private  pilot conducted a cross-country flight from Pompano, Fl to
>Virginia making ONE  stop in South Carolina. He stayed overnight visiting friends
>and the next day  he returned to Florida using the reverse route. He now wants
>to apply this  cross-country flight to meet the requirement for §  
>61.129(a)(4)(i).
>>
>>The questions are: 1) If this is one flight,  how many days can elapse and
>still be counted as one flight? i.e. one night,  three nights, 2 weeks, 1
>month, etc?
>>
>>ANSWER: Ref. §  61.129(a)(4)(i) and § 61.1(b)(3)(ii); Yes, it is a good
>cross-country. This  cross-country can be counted for § 61.129(a)(4)(i) purposes
>and also for §  61.65(d)(1) purposes.
>
>>If my geography is correct, a cross-country  flight from Pompano, Florida to
>Virginia and return is a “. . . cross-country  flight of not less than 300
>nautical miles total distance.” And the first stop  in South Carolina is “. . .
>at least is a straight-line distance of at least  250 nautical miles from the
>original departure point” (i.e., Pompano,  Florida). And the cross-country
>flight involved “. . . landings at a minimum  of three points . . .” (i.e.,
>airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and  Pompano, Florida). Yes, the landing on
>the return trip back to Pompano,  Florida counts as one of the 3 landings.
>>{Q&A-433}  

Peter.
--
Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
E-mail replies to peter240@peter2000AB.co.uk but remove the A and the B.
Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary.
Jim Macklin - 16 Dec 2006 13:40 GMT
The long flight does NOT have to be on the same day, it is
acceptable to have a stop, but it must be as it says below
[regulation] landings at three places, with one a straight
line of 250 NM.  I would log the flight as stages, with the
citation of 61.129 in the remarks, with notes that it was a
continuous trip, with stops at three airports.  This may
have already been meet with you previous experience.  I
would endorse you on the trips you listed, but the issue is
what the designated examiner wants.  Ask your CFI who he
would send you to for the test and then both of you should
speak to the eaxminer.  But nowhere in the regulation does
it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight
line from the departure, you should be OK.
Be sure the flights are SOLO, no passengers allowed, no dual
allowed.
   http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14
tab_02.tpl

§ 61.129   Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided
in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
includes at least-

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
hours must be in a single-engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a
retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch
propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of
a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting
of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for
the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the
date of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on
the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part,
which includes at least-

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
landings (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
tower.

|I cannot find an answer on the FAA Q&A site (the one with the personal
| login, but which in fact appears to be rather bare), so I wrote to
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
| >>If my geography is correct, a cross-country  flight from Pompano, Florida to
| >Virginia and return is a ". . . cross-country  flight of
not less than 300
| >nautical miles total distance." And the first stop  in
South Carolina is ". . .
| >at least is a straight-line distance of at least  250 nautical miles from the
| >original departure point" (i.e., Pompano,  Florida). And
the cross-country
| >flight involved ". . . landings at a minimum  of three
points . . ." (i.e.,
| >airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and  Pompano, Florida). Yes, the landing on
| >the return trip back to Pompano,  Florida counts as one of the 3 landings.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
| E-mail replies to peter240@peter2000AB.co.uk but remove the A and the B.
| Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary.
Bill Zaleski - 16 Dec 2006 15:07 GMT
Jim is certainly correct on this.  The flights do not have to be on
the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks.  The flight is
not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
to the original starting point, .

>The long flight does NOT have to be on the same day, it is
>acceptable to have a stop, but it must be as it says below
[quoted text clipped - 210 lines]
>| Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT
>necessary.
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 15:59 GMT
> The flights do not have to be on
> the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks.  The flight is
> not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
> to the original starting point, .

The flight  is not over until you say it's over.  There is no definition
of "flight", and therefore you can declare a single "flight" to be
whatever combination of legs you want it to be.  This is supported by
the FAA FAQ.

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Peter - 16 Dec 2006 16:06 GMT
>The flight  is not over until you say it's over.  There is no definition
>of "flight", and therefore you can declare a single "flight" to be
>whatever combination of legs you want it to be.  This is supported by
>the FAA FAQ.

Do you have a URL to this FAQ? That's what I need.
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 17:01 GMT
> Do you have a URL to this FAQ? That's what I need.

The faq is difficult to find, and may not even be up any more.  It seems
the FAA can make up its own rules as it goes along.

I have a copy of the FAQ for part 61, REVISION #17, DATE: AUGUST 22,
2002 INCORPORATING Q&A  #s: 471-522 WITH ALL PREVIOUS Q&As  1 - 470

MAINTAINED BY ALLAN PINKSTON
PILOT EXAMINER STANDARDIZATION TEAM,  AFS-640
Contact:  Allan  Pinkston   phone:  (405)  954 - 6472
E-Mail:  K.Allan.Pinkston@faa.gov

I can send it to you if you like.

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Chris - 16 Dec 2006 16:13 GMT
> Jim is certainly correct on this.  The flights do not have to be on
> the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks.  The flight is
> not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
> to the original starting point, .

where does it say you have to return to the original starting point?  For
example taking a plane from Niagara Falls to Providence Rhode Island with
stops at Rochester Pittsfield and Barnes should do the trick.
Bill Zaleski - 16 Dec 2006 16:25 GMT
You are correct.  There is no requirement to return to the original
starting point. The FAQ's did state though, that when/if you do return
to the original point of departure, the flight is considered
completed.

I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone
wants it.  The FAA says that it is not any good any more.  Pretty
stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability.

>> Jim is certainly correct on this.  The flights do not have to be on
>> the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks.  The flight is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>example taking a plane from Niagara Falls to Providence Rhode Island with
>stops at Rochester Pittsfield and Barnes should do the trick.
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 17:06 GMT
> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone
> wants it.  The FAA says that it is not any good any more.  Pretty
> stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability.

Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Bill Zaleski - 16 Dec 2006 22:02 GMT
I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough,
who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about 6-8 months ago,
recinding the memorandum that is at the top of the last FAQ revision
(#22).  It effectively said that the FAQ's are no longer policy and
that was the reason for the removal of them from the FAA site.

Too bad that the FAQ's were the best thing we had, and the feds chose
to replace them with nothing but the suggestion to make inquiries to
the FSDO.

>> I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone
>> wants it.  The FAA says that it is not any good any more.  Pretty
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Jose
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 22:17 GMT
> I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough,

I gotta get me one of them.

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Bill Zaleski - 17 Dec 2006 03:41 GMT
>> I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough,
>
>I gotta get me one of them.
>
>Jose

I just erased it a few weeks ago, or I would post it, sorry.
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 02:30 GMT
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/

|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from Mr. Ballough,
| who is/was the manager of FAA flight standards about 6-8 months ago,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
| >
| >Jose
Bill Zaleski - 17 Dec 2006 03:44 GMT
Jim:  Is there something in particular in this link that I am missing?

>    http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>| >
>| >Jose
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 04:10 GMT
Yes, it is the "book" that tells an FAA Inspector (General
Aviation) how to do every task they do and since it is
on-line they stopped the other letters.

| Jim:  Is there something in particular in this link that I am missing?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/

| >|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from
| >Mr. Ballough,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
| >| >
| >| >Jose
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 04:13 GMT
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/

| Yes, it is the "book" that tells an FAA Inspector (General
| Aviation) how to do every task they do and since it is
| on-line they stopped the other letters.
|
|| Jim:  Is there something in particular in this link that I
| am missing?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/

|| >"Bill Zaleski" <wrz@instrumentratings.com> wrote in
| message
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
|| >| >
|| >| >Jose
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 04:12 GMT
closer
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/

| Jim:  Is there something in particular in this link that I am missing?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/

| >|I received an email via the FAA subscription system from
| >Mr. Ballough,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
| >| >
| >| >Jose
Jose - 17 Dec 2006 05:45 GMT
>> Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?
>  http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/

There are over 20 PDF files on that link.  It's a good site, but none of
them (by their titles) give me a clue as to rescinding the FAQ.  Which
one is it?  (so I don't have to download and read 20 PDFs)

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 10:56 GMT
I haven't downloaded all of them either.

| >> Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/exam_inspector_orders/

| There are over 20 PDF files on that link.  It's a good site, but none of
| them (by their titles) give me a clue as to rescinding the FAQ.  Which
| one is it?  (so I don't have to download and read 20 PDFs)
|
| Jose
Jose - 17 Dec 2006 17:42 GMT
> I haven't downloaded all of them either.

Ok, in which one did you read that the FAQ is no longer valid?

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 18:08 GMT
None, that wasn't my point in posting the link.  Having
those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded, you
have the direct source.

|> I haven't downloaded all of them either.
|
| Ok, in which one did you read that the FAQ is no longer valid?
|
| Jose
Jose - 17 Dec 2006 20:18 GMT
> None, that wasn't my point in posting the link.  Having
> those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded, you
> have the direct source.

I disagree.  The FARs should make the FAQ unnecessary, but that
obviously isn't the case.  And the point wasn't that the FAQs were
"unneeded", it was that they "no longer mirror the FAA policy", implying
that the policy changed, or that the answers in the FAQ are now incorrect.

It is good to have these Inspector manuals available however.

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 20:40 GMT
The FAR makes a lawyer necessary, they are written by
lawyers.

|> None, that wasn't my point in posting the link.  Having
| > those Inspector manuals on-line makes the FAQs unneeded, you
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|
| Jose
Peter - 16 Dec 2006 16:08 GMT
>But nowhere in the regulation does
>it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
>longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight
>line from the departure, you should be OK.

Thank you Jim - but where is the requirement for all legs to be over
50nm?

When I did the IFR x/c for the IR, we did the flight with an initial
250nm leg and then flew to a nearby airport to achieve the three
different IAPs.

In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be done at the
same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure.
BT - 16 Dec 2006 17:11 GMT
In the US,

Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm

Distance and landings: 61.129(a)(4)(i), "SOLO" One "flight" or Trip, of at
least 300nm with landings at a minimum of three points, at least one landing
250nm straight line from the original departure point

To meet this requirement I flew from Lea Vegas NV, to Mesquite (NE of Las
Vegas) to "stage the aircraft" and there declared the beginning of my trip.
I flew from Mesquite to Leverne-Brackett CA (my first landing) and had a
late breakfast with friends at the airport. From there to Gillespie Field in
SanDiego CA to meet another friend. Gillespie is more than 250nm straight
line from Mesquite and my second landing. I then refueled and returned to
Las Vegas (VGT) NV, more than enough distance for my 300nm total required
and my 3rd landing. At that point I declared my "trip" complete for the
requirement of 61.129(a)(4)(i)

BT

>>But nowhere in the regulation does
>>it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be done at the
> same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure.
Peter - 16 Dec 2006 17:45 GMT
>Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm

Yes, the first leg has to be >250nm but I can't see a requirement for
the subsequent legs to be >50nm.

I know a x/c flight is anything over >50nm with the departure and
destination being different places, but I don't see how this applies
to this flight.

It certainly isn't standard practice even in the USA, where I did my
IR.
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 17:57 GMT
>>Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm
> Yes, the first leg has to be >250nm but I can't see a requirement for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> destination being different places, but I don't see how this applies
> to this flight.

It is not the first leg that has to be >250nm.  At least one landing has
to be more than 250 nm from the original point of departure.  The other
legs, it appears, can be any length.

> I know a x/c flight is anything over >50nm with the departure and
> destination being different places,

No, for this purpose x/c means the departure and destination have to be
more than 50 nm apart.  You can't just fly >50nm and land right next
door, and call it a x/c for purposes of meeting commercial requirements.

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

BT - 16 Dec 2006 18:01 GMT
the first leg does not have to be >250nm for 61.129, but only one landing of
at least 3 different points at least that distance from the original
starting point

In the original post, you asked where the Cross country distance definition
was, it is 50nm and is in 61.1, this is primarily geared to those that may
only make lots of 30nm trips from "home" and want to count the x-c time
towards a rating.

you can log anything you want as x-c, but to count it toward a rating, it
needs to be at least 50nm

I did not say that each leg had to be 50nm, if you wanted, you could land 16
times, every 25miles as long as you finally got 250nm from where you declare
the start point and then head back.

I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one
day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night
you can continue on the next day or 3 days later.

Just as long as you are SOLO.

BT

>>Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It certainly isn't standard practice even in the USA, where I did my
> IR.
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 18:08 GMT
> I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one
> day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night
> you can continue on the next day or 3 days later.
>
> Just as long as you are SOLO.

It doesn't even have to be continuous, or in the same airplane.  You can
 fly somewhere solo, fly some friends around (separate flight), and
then fly somewhere else again solo (continuing the original flight,
land, switch airplanes, fly to a third place (continuing the original
flight)...  You have a lot of latitude in what you consider a "flight".

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin - 16 Dec 2006 18:16 GMT
It helps to mark the flights in your logbook that are used
to meet certain requirements.  When then FAA looks at a
logbook for an ATP or a DE looks during the PP and CP, they
often ask, which/when did you log the time for some
"special" flight.  It saves time if you have some reference
to the regulation or at lest a mark of some sort.

|> I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one
| > day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
|
| Jose
Peter - 16 Dec 2006 20:09 GMT
>It doesn't even have to be continuous, or in the same airplane.  You can
>  fly somewhere solo, fly some friends around (separate flight), and
>then fly somewhere else again solo (continuing the original flight,
>land, switch airplanes, fly to a third place (continuing the original
>flight)...  You have a lot of latitude in what you consider a "flight".

Yes, The FAQ which you kindly emailed me contains this bit

>QUESTION: A question has come up regarding § 61.129(a)(4)(i) from an examiner in our district.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from Pompano, Florida to Virginia and return is a ". . . cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance."   And the first stop in South Carolina is ". . . at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point" (i.e., Pompano, Florida).  And the cross-country flight involved ". . . landings at a minimum of three points . . ." (i.e., airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano, Florida).  Yes, the landing on the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one of the 3 landings.  
>{Q&A-433}

which is pretty clear.

Amazingly, an awful lot of people on the FAA instruction scene take a
different view.

This may seem strange to Americans but pilots doing FAA
certificates/ratings outside the USA are doing them under a regime
where you never know which US$500/checkride DPE you are going to get,
or indeed if one will turn up at all when you have done your training.

I did my IR in Arizona for this reason, but examiners are again
becoming available outside the USA which is why I am trying to do the
Commercial stuff here.
Chris - 17 Dec 2006 22:29 GMT
> This may seem strange to Americans but pilots doing FAA
> certificates/ratings outside the USA are doing them under a regime
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> becoming available outside the USA which is why I am trying to do the
> Commercial stuff here.

In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going 250nm from the
start point. It invariably means its an international trip or over a lot of
water.

I manage to squeeze my in by a trip from Southend to Lands End and back to
Elstree via Plymouth and Henstridge.

The thought of having to go to France or across to Ireland was too much and
the weather was too bad for Scotland (and that would have meant Glasgow.

When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see the problem.
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 23:26 GMT
That's why Hawaii has an exception.

| > This may seem strange to Americans but pilots doing FAA
| > certificates/ratings outside the USA are doing them under a regime
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
|
| When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see the problem.
Peter - 18 Dec 2006 17:57 GMT
>In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going 250nm from the
>start point. It invariably means its an international trip or over a lot of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>When you look at the shape of Great Britain you can see the problem.

True.

I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if
one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm. Then one has to do 2
more landings somewhere, and I guess landings at the same airport
don't count (though the reg doesn't prohibit them).

Or one could do it coming back to the UK; one could land at Southend,
then Lydd, then Shoreham for example. Done.

There is absolutely no doubt that most American based DPEs would
accept my own x/c flights which are much longer e.g.
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/corfu/whole-trip.gif
but the CFI I've got has so far refused. These were with a passenger
though (which the FAQ - if not the FAR - rules out) but I have
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/leax/route1.gif
and back which was solo.

As I say, this is the joy of doing a US commercial cert outside the
USA :)
Chris - 19 Dec 2006 00:41 GMT
>>In England, the 300nm flight is difficult especially going 250nm from the
>>start point. It invariably means its an international trip or over a lot
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/leax/route1.gif
> and back which was solo.

Dublin gives a water crossing that's why I did Southend to Lands End via
Plymouth then back to Elstree via Hens.

The interesting conundrum I had was about getting back late i.e. after
sunset. The FAR requires the trip to be done VFR but there is no night VFR
in the UK. Its either SVFR or IFR. SVFR only counts in controlled airspace.
So try explaining  that we can fly IFR without an instrument rating to a
DPE.
The issue is VMC and IMC as much as VFR and IFR. The difference is subtle
but there is a big difference.

BTW, The FAR makes it clear it has to be solo.
Jose - 19 Dec 2006 03:05 GMT
> I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if
> one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm.

IF this is for the US certificate, then you don't have to bend the legs.
 Just land.  Then take off and fly another 26 nm in any direction and
land.  Now you've flown more than 300 nm.  Satisfy the other criteria
and you're done.

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Chris - 19 Dec 2006 19:01 GMT
>> I would do it from say Southend to Dublin. 275nm GC distance and if
>> one bent the leg a bit then it would be > 300nm.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Jose

Duff trip that one anyway with the need to comply with the Terrorism Act on
a trip to Ireland. Much better going to France where that does not apply.
Peter - 20 Dec 2006 11:52 GMT
Is it OK to fly > 300nm and then do three landings at the *same*
airport?
Jim Macklin - 20 Dec 2006 12:11 GMT
No, three [ or more] different airports.
§ 61.129   Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided
in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
includes at least-

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
hours must be in a single-engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a
retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch
propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of
a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting
of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for
the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the
date of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on
the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part,
which includes at least-

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
landings (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
tower.

(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided
in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
includes at least-

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least-

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
hours must be in a multiengine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has
a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch
propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training
in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a
total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles
from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of
a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the
practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date
of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane
or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in
command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized
instructor (either of which may be credited towards the
flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this
section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2)
of this part that includes at least-

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
landings (with each landing involving a flight with a
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
tower.

| Is it OK to fly > 300nm and then do three landings at the *same*
| airport?
Jim Macklin - 16 Dec 2006 18:10 GMT
FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country.
%0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond
26 NM requires student pilots to be endorsed for X-C.

Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a first
leg of 51 NM and be followed by a landing every 5 miles for
three hundred miles and they'd all be X-C creditable toward
X-C requirements, but the LONG CROSS-COUNTRY requires a
single 250 mile leg between landings, the required number of
landings in the C-X section should be a different airports.

| >But nowhere in the regulation does
| >it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
| In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be done at the
| same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure.
Jose - 16 Dec 2006 18:47 GMT
> Technically, a flight with multiple lands must have a first
> leg of 51 NM...

Where is it that the =first= leg is the one that has to be >50nm?

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

BT - 16 Dec 2006 18:53 GMT
> FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country.
> %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> single 250 mile leg between landings, the required number of
> landings in the C-X section should be a different airports.

Where does it say a "single 250nm leg"?
I say.. 61.129 does not, It says a trip of at least 300nm with 3 landings
and one landing at least 250nm straight line from the starting airport.

BT
Chris - 17 Dec 2006 22:33 GMT
>> FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country.
>> %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I say.. 61.129 does not, It says a trip of at least 300nm with 3 landings
> and one landing at least 250nm straight line from the starting airport.

Jims making it up as he goes along
Jim Macklin - 17 Dec 2006 23:30 GMT
61.129
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

The intention us a single long leg, not 25 ten mile hops.

| >> FAR Part 1 and Part 61 have a requirement for Cross-country.
| >> %0 NM is the benchmark for C-X to count when logging, beyond
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
|
| Jims making it up as he goes along
Jose - 17 Dec 2006 23:57 GMT
> 61.129
> (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> The intention us a single long leg, not 25 ten mile hops.

I don't see that intent there.  IN fact, I see an intent to =allow= a
series of ten mile hops.

"landings at a minimum of three points" (there could easily be more
landings) and "one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles" (not "one leg at least 250 miles long").

I imagine (and this is my imagination, not an FAA statement) that the
intent is to show competence in navigation, weather decisionmaking, and
ability to operate away from familiar surroundings, all of which are
important.

Jose
Signature

"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are."  - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin - 18 Dec 2006 01:53 GMT
I suggest you call the nearest FSDO or the FAA in OKC and
ask them, I have.

|> 61.129
| > (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
|
| Jose
BT - 18 Dec 2006 03:09 GMT
>I suggest you call the nearest FSDO or the FAA in OKC and
> ask them, I have.

I don't need too make a phone call, I've already completed the commercial
requirements, my instructor approved the flight, the DPE accepted the
flight.

I "repositioned" from North Las Vegas NV to Mesquite NV, landed and declared
the start of my 300nm x-c. I landed at Leverne Bracket CA for breakfast with
friends, I landed at Gillespie Field in SanDiego for a late lunch with
another friend and refueled, more than 250nm from Mesquite and then I
returned to VGT.

More than 300nm trip from Mesquite to Leverne to Gillespie to North Las
Vegas, and 3 landings (Leverne, Gillespie and North Las Vegas) and more than
250nm to the farthest distant airport, (Mesquite to Gillespie).

Requirement complete and within the scope of the FAR 61.129

BT
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2010 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.