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Aviation Forum / General / IFR / August 2008Filing IFR flight Plan in VMC
I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting. .so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally. This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights, less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts? Thanks ron.. >I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be > finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Thanks ron.. This one I think is pretty straightforward. You may not accept or fly under an IFR clearance unless the plane and PIC are IFR current. Time of day, visibility, class of airspace do not play a part in this determination. You can file (for the practice of filing) but you cannot accept the clearance as PIC unless you are IFR current. Which raises the question "is the safety pilot PIC" if the pilot operating the controls with a vision restricting device is has not met the 6/6 requirement? You are VFR but operating under an IFR clearance for the purposes of the practice approaches. Who has legally accepted the approaches? Can you quote me the FAR that states this?? thanks ron >>I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be >> finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >purposes of the practice approaches. Who has legally accepted the >approaches? >>I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be >> finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > purposes of the practice approaches. Who has legally accepted the > approaches? You do not have to be under an IFR clearance to practice approaches. In fact, some controllers will say "Practice Approach Approved" rather than the normal "Cleared for the approach" to make this point clear.  SignatureMark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA > > You do not have to be under an IFR clearance to practice approaches. In > fact, some controllers will say "Practice Approach Approved" rather than > the normal "Cleared for the approach" to make this point clear. That matches my experience. You're still VFR while flying IFR practice approaches. No separation or terrain warning is provided. My local guys usually say "Cleared for the ILS XX practice approach, remain VFR". Real requests for approach usually include the "Are you rated and equipped?" query if you're not arriving on an IFR plan. > You're still VFR while flying IFR practice approaches. No separation > or terrain warning is provided. FAA policy is to provide separation to VFR aircraft while conducting practice instrument approaches where it is practical to do so. Generally, that means Class D airspace or higher with good radar coverage. > Real requests for approach usually include the "Are you rated and > equipped?" query if you're not arriving on an IFR plan. Shouldn't be. It is reasonable to assume the pilot is capable of the service he requests. There is a requirement to ask the pilot if he is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight when a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions. But in that case it's the controller that's suggesting IFR, not the pilot requesting it. >> You're still VFR while flying IFR practice approaches. No separation >> or terrain warning is provided. > > FAA policy is to provide separation to VFR aircraft while conducting > practice instrument approaches where it is practical to do so. Generally, > that means Class D airspace or higher with good radar coverage. It very well could be traffic volume, but I am often specifically told "no separation services..." by PVD and BDL during practice approaches. I appreciate the clarification as I hear it so often I thought it was SOP. >> Real requests for approach usually include the "Are you rated and >> equipped?" query if you're not arriving on an IFR plan. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > weather conditions. But in that case it's the controller that's suggesting > IFR, not the pilot requesting it. That's what I'm talking about. A VFR aircraft arriving at an IFR airport, so it needs an IFR approach. This is very common on Cape Cod and the Islands. I hear Cape and Boston approach ask the question so often, my rarely flying pax even know what it means. > That's what I'm talking about. A VFR aircraft arriving at an IFR > airport, so it needs an IFR approach. This is very common on Cape Cod > and the Islands. I hear Cape and Boston approach ask the question so > often, my rarely flying pax even know what it means. Apparently an unnecessary local custom. > > That's what I'm talking about. A VFR aircraft arriving at an IFR > > airport, so it needs an IFR approach. This is very common on Cape Cod > > and the Islands. I hear Cape and Boston approach ask the question so > > often, my rarely flying pax even know what it means. > > Apparently an unnecessary local custom. Given the sudden and unexpected weather conditions around the Cape, it's not a bad idea to ask. >>> That's what I'm talking about. A VFR aircraft arriving at an IFR >>> airport, so it needs an IFR approach. This is very common on Cape [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Given the sudden and unexpected weather conditions around > the Cape, it's not a bad idea to ask. Why? What's the benefit in asking? >>>> That's what I'm talking about. A VFR aircraft arriving at an IFR >>>> airport, so it needs an IFR approach. This is very common on Cape [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Why? What's the benefit in asking? Don't know, but I've been asked at Rockford, IL and Montgomery, AL. >> You're still VFR while flying IFR practice approaches. No separation >> or terrain warning is provided. > > FAA policy is to provide separation to VFR aircraft while conducting > practice instrument approaches where it is practical to do so. Generally, > that means Class D airspace or higher with good radar coverage. Some local data points. I flew three practice approaches tonight (7/29). #1 - LDA 2 into KHFD. BDL Approach specifically stated "remain VFR". HFD Tower called out so much traffic, I couldn't call my missed. None of the traffic was anything near IFR separation. #2 - ILS 5 to KGON. PVD Approach stated "Remain VFR, no traffic separation provided" KGON tower controller seemed pretty bored, I was the only thing around. #3 - VOR-A to KIJD. PVD Approach stated "Remain VFR, no traffic separation provided after ORW VOR." He did have me keep the squawk all the way to the airport, even after switching to CTAF. On the funny side... PVD was providing advisories to a guy who would launch into a 5 minute dissertation with each traffic call! <G> The guy narrated the current position in relation to his aircraft as the traffic passed. He would also keep coming back and update approach on the position once he passed it! Haven't heard that before! > I flew three practice approaches tonight (7/29). > > #1 - LDA 2 into KHFD. BDL Approach specifically stated "remain VFR". > HFD Tower called out so much traffic, I couldn't call my missed. None > of the traffic was anything near IFR separation. None was needed unless that traffic was IFR or another VFR aircraft practicing approaches. Still not needed if visual separation was being used. >>> You're still VFR while flying IFR practice approaches. No >>> separation or terrain warning is provided. >> >> FAA policy is to provide separation to VFR aircraft while conducting >> practice instrument approaches where it is practical to do so. Generally, >> that means Class D airspace or higher with good radar coverage. Some background: Order JO 7210.3V Facility Operation and Administration Part 2. AIR ROUTE TRAFFIC CONTROL CENTERS Chapter 6. En Route Operations and Services Section 4. Services 6-4-4. PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACHES To the extent practicable, each ARTCC should provide IFR separation to aircraft not on IFR flight plans conducting practice instrument approaches to airports where that ARTCC provides approach control service. a. At locations where IFR separation is applied to VFR aircraft conducting practice instrument approaches and that airport has a nonapproach control tower or an AFSS/FSS, provisions for handling such aircraft, including aircraft being provided DF services, shall be included in a letter of agreement. b. ARTCCs shall issue a letter to airmen advising users of airports where IFR separation is provided for VFR aircraft conducting practice instrument approaches. The letter should include appropriate frequencies for the airport concerned. Part 3. TERMINAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL FACILITIES Chapter 10. Terminal Operations, Services, and Equipment Section 4. Services 10-4-5. PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACHES a. VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches at the approach control's primary airport shall be provided IFR separation in accordance with FAAO JO 7110.65, Air Traffic Control, Chapter 4, Section 8, Approach Clearance Procedures. NOTE- The primary airport is the airport from which approach control service is provided, except for remoted facilities where the facility air traffic manager will designate the primary airport. b. IFR separation to VFR aircraft in accordance with FAAO JO 7110.65, Chapter 4, Section 8, Approach Clearance Procedures, shall be provided to all secondary airports under the approach control's jurisdiction to the extent possible within existing resources. Where separation service is provided to an airport with an AFSS/FSS that provides LAA, or a nonapproach control tower, provisions for handling such aircraft, including aircraft being provided DF service, shall be included in a LOA. c. Where standard separation is not provided to VFR aircraft conducting practice approaches, instruct the aircraft to maintain VFR and provide traffic information. d. At airports where the tower does not provide approach control service, handle practice instrument approaches in accordance with a LOA between the tower and the facility providing approach control service. e. Facilities shall issue a letter to airmen advising the users of those airports where standard separation is provided for VFR aircraft conducting practice instrument approaches. The letter should specify which facility will handle the aircraft practicing instrument approaches and include the appropriate frequencies. REFERENCE- Para 4-5-2, Letters to Airmen. Part 4. FLIGHT SERVICE STATIONS Chapter 13. Flight Service Operations and Services Section 4. Services 13-4-2. PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACHES At locations providing Local Airport Advisories (LAA) where either an ARTCC or an approach control facility provides standard separation to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches, provisions for handling such aircraft shall be included in a letter of agreement. Order JO 7110.65S Air Traffic Control Chapter 4. IFR Section 8. Approach Clearance Procedures 4-8-11. PRACTICE APPROACHES Except for military aircraft operating at military airfields, ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require. Normally, approaches in progress should not be terminated. NOTE- The priority afforded other aircraft over practice instrument approaches is not intended to be so rigidly applied that it causes grossly inefficient application of services. a. Separation. 1. IFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches shall be afforded standard separation in accordance with Chapter 3, Chapter 4, Chapter 5, Chapter 6, and Chapter 7 minima until: (a) The aircraft lands, and the flight is terminated, or (b) The pilot cancels the flight plan. 2. Where procedures require application of IFR separation to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches, standard IFR separation in accordance with Chapter 3, Chapter 4, Chapter 5, Chapter 6, and Chapter 7 shall be provided. Controller responsibility for separation begins at the point where the approach clearance becomes effective. Except for heavy aircraft/B757, 500 feet vertical separation may be applied between VFR aircraft and between a VFR and an IFR aircraft. REFERENCE- FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 6-4-4, Practice Instrument Approaches. FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 10-4-5, Practice Instrument Approaches. 3. Where separation services are not provided to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches, the controller shall; (a) Instruct the pilot to maintain VFR. (b) Advise the pilot that separation services are not provided. PHRASEOLOGY- "(Aircraft identification) MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED." (c) Provide traffic information or advise the pilot to contact the appropriate facility. 4. If an altitude is assigned, including at or above/below altitudes, the altitude specified must meet MVA, minimum safe altitude, or minimum IFR altitude criteria. REFERENCE- FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-7-5, Altitude Assignments. 5. All VFR aircraft shall be instructed to maintain VFR on initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter. NOTE- This advisory is intended to remind the pilot that even though ATC is providing IFR-type instructions, the pilot is responsible for compliance with the applicable parts of the CFR governing VFR flight. b. Missed Approaches. 1. Unless alternate instructions have been issued, IFR aircraft are automatically authorized to execute the missed approach depicted for the instrument approach being flown. REFERENCE- FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4-8-9, Missed Approach. 2. VFR aircraft are not automatically authorized to execute the missed approach procedure. This authorization must be specifically requested by the pilot and approved by the controller. When a missed approach has been approved, separation shall be provided throughout the missed approach. REFERENCE- FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-2-1, Visual Separation. Aeronautical Information Manual Official Guide to Basic Flight Information and ATC Procedures Chapter 4. Air Traffic Control Section 3. Airport Operations 4-3-21. Practice Instrument Approaches a. Various air traffic incidents have indicated the necessity for adoption of measures to achieve more organized and controlled operations where practice instrument approaches are conducted. Practice instrument approaches are considered to be instrument approaches made by either a VFR aircraft not on an IFR flight plan or an aircraft on an IFR flight plan. To achieve this and thereby enhance air safety, it is Air Traffic's policy to provide for separation of such operations at locations where approach control facilities are located and, as resources permit, at certain other locations served by ARTCCs or parent approach control facilities. Pilot requests to practice instrument approaches may be approved by ATC subject to traffic and workload conditions. Pilots should anticipate that in some instances the controller may find it necessary to deny approval or withdraw previous approval when traffic conditions warrant. It must be clearly understood, however, that even though the controller may be providing separation, pilots on VFR flight plans are required to comply with basic VFR weather minimums (14 CFR Section 91.155). Application of ATC procedures or any action taken by the controller to avoid traffic conflictions does not relieve IFR and VFR pilots of their responsibility to see-and-avoid other traffic while operating in VFR conditions (14 CFR Section 91.113). In addition to the normal IFR separation minimums (which includes visual separation) during VFR conditions, 500 feet vertical separation may be applied between VFR aircraft and between a VFR aircraft and the IFR aircraft. Pilots not on IFR flight plans desiring practice instrument approaches should always state `practice' when making requests to ATC. Controllers will instruct VFR aircraft requesting an instrument approach to maintain VFR. This is to preclude misunderstandings between the pilot and controller as to the status of the aircraft. If pilots wish to proceed in accordance with instrument flight rules, they must specifically request and obtain, an IFR clearance. b. Before practicing an instrument approach, pilots should inform the approach control facility or the tower of the type of practice approach they desire to make and how they intend to terminate it, i.e., full-stop landing, touch-and-go, or missed or low approach maneuver. This information may be furnished progressively when conducting a series of approaches. Pilots on an IFR flight plan, who have made a series of instrument approaches to full stop landings should inform ATC when they make their final landing. The controller will control flights practicing instrument approaches so as to ensure that they do not disrupt the flow of arriving and departing itinerant IFR or VFR aircraft. The priority afforded itinerant aircraft over practice instrument approaches is not intended to be so rigidly applied that it causes grossly inefficient application of services. A minimum delay to itinerant traffic may be appropriate to allow an aircraft practicing an approach to complete that approach. NOTE- A clearance to land means that appropriate separation on the landing runway will be ensured. A landing clearance does not relieve the pilot from compliance with any previously issued restriction. c. At airports without a tower, pilots wishing to make practice instrument approaches should notify the facility having control jurisdiction of the desired approach as indicated on the approach chart. All approach control facilities and ARTCCs are required to publish a Letter to Airmen depicting those airports where they provide standard separation to both VFR and IFR aircraft conducting practice instrument approaches. d. The controller will provide approved separation between both VFR and IFR aircraft when authorization is granted to make practice approaches to airports where an approach control facility is located and to certain other airports served by approach control or an ARTCC. Controller responsibility for separation of VFR aircraft begins at the point where the approach clearance becomes effective, or when the aircraft enters Class B or Class C airspace, or a TRSA, whichever comes first. e. VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches are not automatically authorized to execute the missed approach procedure. This authorization must be specifically requested by the pilot and approved by the controller. Separation will not be provided unless the missed approach has been approved by ATC. f. Except in an emergency, aircraft cleared to practice instrument approaches must not deviate from the approved procedure until cleared to do so by the controller. g. At radar approach control locations when a full approach procedure (procedure turn, etc.,) cannot be approved, pilots should expect to be vectored to a final approach course for a practice instrument approach which is compatible with the general direction of traffic at that airport. h. When granting approval for a practice instrument approach, the controller will usually ask the pilot to report to the tower prior to or over the final approach fix inbound (nonprecision approaches) or over the outer marker or fix used in lieu of the outer marker inbound (precision approaches). i. When authorization is granted to conduct practice instrument approaches to an airport with a tower, but where approved standard separation is not provided to aircraft conducting practice instrument approaches, the tower will approve the practice approach, instruct the aircraft to maintain VFR and issue traffic information, as required. j. When an aircraft notifies a FSS providing Local Airport Advisory to the airport concerned of the intent to conduct a practice instrument approach and whether or not separation is to be provided, the pilot will be instructed to contact the appropriate facility on a specified frequency prior to initiating the approach. At airports where separation is not provided, the FSS will acknowledge the message and issue known traffic information but will neither approve or disapprove the approach. k. Pilots conducting practice instrument approaches should be particularly alert for other aircraft operating in the local traffic pattern or in proximity to the airport. > Some local data points. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > HFD Tower called out so much traffic, I couldn't call my missed. None > of the traffic was anything near IFR separation. There is no mention of practice approaches in the Bradley TRACON/Hartford-Brainerd FCT Letter of Agreement. Bradley TRACON has provided no Letters to Airmen to the Facility Directives Repository. You state, "None of the traffic was anything near IFR separation." Was any of that traffic IFR? HFD has Class D airspace. No separation is provided between IFR and VFR aircraft in Class D airspace, so no separation would be provided between IFR aircraft and VFR aircraft on practice instrument approaches. Even if there were provisions for separation for VFR aircraft on instrument approaches at HFD, visual separation is an approved method of IFR separation and that can be pretty close. > #2 - ILS 5 to KGON. PVD Approach stated "Remain VFR, no traffic > separation provided" KGON tower controller seemed pretty bored, I was > the only thing around. Providence ATCT has provided no Letters to Airmen to the Facility Directives Repository. The Providence ATCT/Groton FCT Letter of Agreement states: Providence Airport Traffic Control Tower (PVD ATCT) shall: (1) Exercise control jurisdiction for all aircraft operating IFR and SVFR to or from the GON Airport within PVD ATCT delegated airspace, and shall apply standard IFR separation to all practice approaches. > #3 - VOR-A to KIJD. PVD Approach stated "Remain VFR, no traffic > separation provided after ORW VOR." He did have me keep the squawk > all the way to the airport, even after switching to CTAF. KIJD has no control tower or FSS, it seems to be a bit short on resources. I have to wonder why the controller was providing separation at all. >>>> You're still VFR while flying IFR practice approaches. No >>>> separation or terrain warning is provided. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Order JO 7210.3V Facility Operation and Administration ----- Snip lots of great stuff --- Thanks, Steven! I always learn lots when you post helpful stuff like that. I now have better understanding of what's really going on. >>>>> You're still VFR while flying IFR practice approaches. No >>>>> separation or terrain warning is provided. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I always learn lots when you post helpful stuff like that. I now have > better understanding of what's really going on. If you're bored sometime or need some reading material for the crapper, it's not a bad idea to read through the ATC orders just to learn the rules they play by. You can find them at: http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ 7110.65 is a good one, and the NOTAM order 7930.2 is worth reading also. If nothing else, they are good reference material. > > > > You do not have to be under an IFR clearance to practice approaches. In [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Real requests for approach usually include the "Are you rated and > equipped?" query if you're not arriving on an IFR plan. Hmmm. 'Round here I don't think I've ever heard a controller ask that, and I've certainly never been asked it with any of the (fairly frequent) pop-up approach requests I've gotten because of the coastal stratus back into Oakland (KOAK) on flights that started VFR. Occasionally NorCal Approach will respond by asking me if I want a full clearance or just want a practice approach, which I usually interpret as the controller having a full plate and wondering whether it's really IMC out there and hinting I could get slotted in much easier if I did a practice approach.... Hamish > You're still VFR while flying IFR practice approaches. No separation or > terrain warning is provided. Usually they will provide seperation. We have one airport that, even when VFR, the controller will say "no separation services provide, cleared for the ILS runway..." > My local guys usually say "Cleared for the ILS XX practice approach, > remain VFR". Which is odd because you are always VFR unless he issues you a claranace. I understand the meaning but its not technically correct. > Real requests for approach usually include the "Are you rated and > equipped?" query if you're not arriving on an IFR plan. I've never, ever been asked that in the US. Its customary in Mexico to ask that when picking up an IFR clearance (not sure what they would do if I said no :)) -Robert >> Real requests for approach usually include the "Are you rated and >> equipped?" query if you're not arriving on an IFR plan. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -Robert Controllers are only required to ask if you're rated and equipped if a pilot flying VFR states he's in weather difficulty and would like an IFR clearance. > Controllers are only required to ask if you're rated and equipped if a > pilot flying VFR states he's in weather difficulty and would like an > IFR clearance. Controllers are never required to ask if a pilot is rated and equipped when he asks for an IFR clearance. >> My local guys usually say "Cleared for the ILS XX practice approach, >> remain VFR". > > Which is odd because you are always VFR unless he issues you a > claranace. Well, "Cleared for the ILS XX practice approach" could be construed as a clearance - it does start with the words "cleared for". So "remain VFR" makes it clear that this is not, in fact, an IFR clearance, despite the wording. > Well, "Cleared for the ILS XX practice approach" could be construed as a > clearance - it does start with the words "cleared for". So "remain VFR" > makes it clear that this is not, in fact, an IFR clearance, despite the > wording. Only if the identifier for your destination is "ILS" :) -robert > You do not have to be under an IFR clearance to practice approaches. In > fact, some controllers will say "Practice Approach Approved" rather than > the normal "Cleared for the approach" to make this point clear. That has nothing to do with it. > Which raises the question "is the safety pilot PIC" if the pilot operating > the controls with a vision restricting device is has not met the 6/6 > requirement? You are VFR but operating under an IFR clearance for the > purposes of the practice approaches. Who has legally accepted the > approaches?- Most of the time practice instrument approaches are practiced under VFR. If you want to practice them under IFR you must ask specifically for an instrument clearance. You will know you have an instrument clearance because the controller will say "Cleared to foobar airport, via...". Probably 90% of all practice instrument approach practice is done under VFR. Note that "IFR" refers to flight rules and has nothing to do with weather. The term "IMC" is used to refer to wx conditions less than VFR. -Robert, CFII >I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be >finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights, >less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts? Unless I'm mistaken, you can't do it. Since you'd be PIC "under IFR" and don't have the rating you can't meet the requirements in 91.169(a)(1) (referencing 91.153(a)(3) ("name of pilot in command" or 61.57(2)(c). It doesn't make a distinction between IMC or VMC while flying under IFR. 61.57(2)(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has: (all the stuff required for instrument currency) >>I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be >>finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has: (all the > stuff required for instrument currency) You missed the big one: 61.3(e). Have a look at my other response. SignatureMark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA >>>I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be >>>finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >You missed the big one: 61.3(e). Have a look at my other response. Yea, dua, I was looking at it from the flight plan PIC requirement back and stopped at recency.... Thanks. > I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be > finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks ron.. Ron, Have a look at FAR 61.3 (e): (e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds: (1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown; (2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown; (3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or (4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating and airship class rating. Note that it says "under IFR *or* in IMC". There are also regs concerning your currency of flight experience. I'll let you look those up as a homework assignment :-) One thing you *can* do, however, is practice instrument approaches. I suspect this is what the "old guys" were talking about. Although not required, you should consider only doing this when you have a safety pilot, as it is not easy to twiddle with all the dials while still keeping your eyes outside the cockpit looking for other traffic. How are things going with your rating otherwise? Best Regards, SignatureMark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA MArk, thanks for the input ,, I did look at 61.3 but interpreted it differently as IFR meaning IMC. So I guess the old guy was full of old crap... .lol... THanks for the info on this one. Im almost done with my required items, hours, approaches, can even do ndb holds, radial holding, etc. The plane I rent has ADF and VOR (KX155) and DME and also has a Garmin 430 so Im learning both the old and new methods. I took my written and got a 96 on it.. so am glad to get that out of the way.. I should be ready for a check ride in Sept.. thanks for the help.. ron.. >> I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be >> finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >Best Regards, > MArk, thanks for the input ,, I did look at 61.3 but interpreted it > differently as IFR meaning IMC. So I guess the old guy was full of old crap... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > so am glad to get that out of the way.. I should be ready for a check ride in > Sept.. thanks for the help.. ron.. Yes, IFR is different than IMC. IFR is "rules", IMC is "conditions". -Robert "Robert M. Gary" wrote > Yes, IFR is different than IMC. IFR is "rules", IMC is "conditions". And just to add....IA,"Instrument Airplane" is the rating on the Airman Certificate. No such thing as an "IFR Rating" or "IFR Ticket". Bob Moore > I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and > will be finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > of my IFR training at night because of my work schedule and love the > night flights, less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts? You must have an instrument rating or an ATP to operate an airplane under Instrument Flight Rules regardless of local weather conditions. § 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations. (e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds: (1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown; (2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown; (3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or (4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating and airship class rating. > I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be > finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR > the entire time. This is what you get from free "old guy" advice. He is totally wrong. It is illegal for you to accept an IFR clearance without being IFR rated and current. -Robert, CFII > The premise is > that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR > the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC > without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. One of the problems is actual clouds. On an IFR plan, there are no cloud clearance requirements, and you can't simply climb and descend at will to avoid them. On an IFR plan, you are expected to go THROUGH even the occasional cloud, which you can't do. > On an IFR plan, you are expected to go THROUGH even the occasional > cloud, which you can't do. I would have thought that until the FAA ruled that helo instrument students can file an IFR flight plan in a VFR only helicopter for the purpose of flight training as long as they stay VMC. Go figure. -Robert, CFII Thanks everybody for the input on my question... ron.. >> On an IFR plan, you are expected to go THROUGH even the occasional >> cloud, which you can't do. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >-Robert, CFII Yes, filing and flying solo IFR is great practice while working on your IFR ticket, however it is illegal to accept an IFR clearance without being qualified with the rating. I know a guy that filed and flew numerous IFR X-C at night while building time to qualify for the minimum time requirements for the IFR rating years ago. All the trips were in VFR conditions at night in benign weather, but IFR regs require the pilot receiving/flying an IFR flight plan to be qualified and equipped. You can get away with it unless something goes wrong, at which point you're either dead or in heap big trouble. SignatureScott What Barack Obama learned from the Communist Party http://tinyurl.com/5bgbpu Democrats to America's drivers: "Let them ride bikes." http://tinyurl.com/5z5vg7 So...when he did all this, did he log it as such and create this illegal record? How did he justify this to the examiner when his logbook was checked...or did the the examiner miss it. Did the CFII say anything about this when the 8710 was filled out? SignatureRegards, BobF. > Yes, filing and flying solo IFR is great practice while working on your > IFR ticket, however it is illegal to accept an IFR clearance without being [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > qualified and equipped. You can get away with it unless something goes > wrong, at which point you're either dead or in heap big trouble. > So...when he did all this, did he log it as such and create this illegal > record? How did he justify this to the examiner when his logbook was > checked...or did the the examiner miss it. Did the CFII say anything > about this when the 8710 was filled out? No, he logged these IFR XC as VFR XC or night. A student in our very large flight school came back from a solo VFR XC bragging to other students in his class about having flown the entire trip from rotation to minimums at destination under the hood. He wasn't one of our brighter students. He had another good story to tell on his IFR checkride. He flew the final IFR approach on his checkride (NDB) flawlessly with the exception that he never tuned the NDB station. He flew the approach tuned to the practice beacon 90 off the nose and followed a road that was just visible at the bottom of the window in the C-172 infront of the pilot-sode door hinge and at the bottom of the glareshield. At the airport there was an access road perfectly offset from the final approach course to be visible under the hood out that window. The examiner complimented the student for a nearly flawless checkride, which was a real trick for this student, and then asked the student if he had cheated during the checkride. When the student answered "no" the examiner asked him to verify the NDB freq. During the final approach the ADF needle was steady as a rock pointing at the left wing. Student was busted. SignatureScott What Barack Obama learned from the Communist Party http://tinyurl.com/5bgbpu Democrats to America's drivers: "Let them ride bikes." http://tinyurl.com/5z5vg7 |
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