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Aviation Forum / General / Learning / September 2008magic Landing numbers for cessna172 S model.
Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after doing 296 landings. It works. Just works for perfect Landing-- no wind factor. Set the wheel for takeoff. Full power. Rotate at 55 to 60kts. Center the ball. Climb at 65knots then 74knots. Trim the wheel. At 600ft look for an aim point to turn 90º to cross wind. At 650ft to 700ft start to turn. Watch the nose to get coordinated turn, maintain same attitude. At exactly1000ft drop the nose for the level flight, Wait until reaching 90Knots, and then reduce the power to exactly 2100rpm. Trim the wheel for level flight. Then turn to crosswind, level the flight 2100 rpm and 90knots. Trim the nose. When I beam “middle of the runway" do landing check.. Fuel on both , mixture rich and seat belts. . When I beam the touch down point (runway numbers) power 1500rpm, flaps 10º, trim the wheel for 500fpm nose drop, speed for 80knots. observe 45º point to turn base At 800ft turn to base, 20º flaps trim the wheel 500fpm nose drop to get 70 knots and maintain 70 knots. Approximately at 500ft turn to final, observe glide path, change the pitch, trim the wheel to maintain 65 knots and aim runway numbers, when you are close to or over the runway threshold, reduce the power to idle, full flaps, to obtain 60kts or less touch down speed. When I am over the runway numbers, look at the end of the runway, flare at about two to three feet and round out. Then hold the nose up until touch down. If you balloon add little power. Hold the attitude. Do not drop the nose. Land gently with main gear. Power idle. Flaps up, trim wheel for the take off full power and go again. Comments are welcome. >At 600ft look for an aim point to turn 90º to cross wind. At 650ft to >700ft start to turn. > >Watch the nose to get coordinated turn, maintain same attitude. Are you saying that you stop climbing to make the crosswind turn? Why not a climbing turn? >when you are close to or over the runway threshold, reduce the power >to idle, full flaps, to obtain 60kts or less touch down speed. This seems a little late for adding the last notch of flaps (if i'm reading you correctly). If you do both a power change and a flap change simutaneously over the threshold, you're just making it more difficult for yourself. Why not add the last notch on short final for a more stabilized approach? John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180) >>At 600ft look for an aim point to turn 90º to cross wind. At 650ft to >>700ft start to turn. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Are you saying that you stop climbing to make the crosswind turn? Why not >a climbing turn? Whooops! I read that as "maintain same altitude". In the immortal words of Emily Latella, "Never mind". John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180) > >>At 600ft look for an aim point to turn 90º to cross wind. At 650ft to > >>700ft start to turn. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -- > Message posted viahttp://www.aviationkb.com You are right. first full flaps based on the situation There we need fine tuning of power. Thanks for your comments and input > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Comments are welcome. Just some basic comments.Procedure is OK but if you take a look at the POH and see what the speeds are, it seems you are about 10 too high. I was confused when you said to add power if you balloon? That will only create more problems. The flare to touchdown should be closer to the Vso+5 (regardless of kts or MPH). I don't agree necessarily with the numbers being the aiming point. I prefer to think of the TOUCHDOWN point as where I want to be focused. And the 45 dgress from the runway is great for initial explanation of where to start the turn, but that will be dictated by what the winds are doing won't it? Your description of the procedures is very close to what we teach for standardization with the exceptions noted. Another note for consideration..... I teach every landing should be set up for a full stop. And, every landing should also have a potential go around in mind. If you focus on a full stop landing to a precise point with minimum speed both forward and vertical at touchdown, you are in the optimum condition even if something is wrong like a flat tire or nose strut? And, with a go around in mind, if things turn to crap, you are already mentally set for it and not caught behind the curve. Good for you to take time to discuss a good landing and procedure. If you are not an instructor, you have the makings of one. Best Regards Ol S&B > > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thank you. My purpose of posting is to get comments like this. I am a student just started flying couple of months ago. I already did closed to 300 landings. > > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > - Show quoted text - What i mean to say is: if you balloon add just very little power to come down gently not with a big thud. That again depends upon the situation, how high you are above the ground and wind. It is again just common sense how much power you are adding. Pls correct me if I am wrong and any different procedure to correct the situation other than going around > > > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > > > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > - Show quoted text - We are in an area that is difficult to discuss via written word. My technique and procedure is to show a 500fpm approach angle which is nearly the same as glide slope for an ILS. The ONLY thing that changes is airspeed on the approach. VASI and PAPI are all calibrated nearly 500fpm regardless of speed. So, why not calibrate your eye to that same angle? If you get into ground effect and flare too abruptly you'll balloon with the predictable up/down control pressures or movements. It only takes 100-200 rpms under normal conditions of change to correct for a balloon. That also has to coincide with a careful and gentle pitch change with elevator to touch down on the main gear and keep the nose wheel off the runway until flying speed is gone and the nose wheel drops with a gentle "PLOP". I do not let my students touch the flap control until the aircraft is stopped. I do not want them doing anything but controlling the aircraft down the centerline until everything is slowed and no distractions. Once that is done, flaps up or after landing checklist done without any other distractions. One other comment from the earlier post.....waiting for airspeed before rotating for takeoff. If you keep the elevator slightly aft of neutral during takeoff roll, and as the nose wheel comes up, hold it about one inch off the runway, (the attitude to be determined but will become obvious with practice) the airplane is in the correct attitude for a Vy climb and will lift off at minimum runway roll. The reasons for this being, as the aircraft accelerates and gains some lift over the wings, the nose wheel lifts off which eliminates 1/3 of rolling friction. That means the aircraft will accelerate more quickly. As the speed increases so does the lift which decreases the main gear friction and allows the aircraft to accelerate more quickly which in turn lets the aircraft do what it was designed for ---AIRPLANE and not a high speed taxi vehicle. Want more of this stuff? Ol S&B > > > > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > > > > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thank you. Please go a head and add more stuff. In article <c8401888-ce59-4d69-8ebf-48f1526ea870@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, > [snip] > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > > > > Comments are welcome. Minor nit: "When I beam" ought to be "When I'm abeam", which is derived from nautical terminology referring to something directly to your 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock position relative to your course. Usually right of your wingtip. For example, you might reduce power as you come abeam your intended touch down point. > In article > <c8401888-ce59-4d69-8ebf-48f1526ea870@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > or 3 o'clock position relative to your course. Usually right of your > wingtip. Minor nit: "right of your wingtip" should be "right off your wingtip" :-) > For example, you might reduce power as you come abeam your intended > touch down point. > > In article > > <c8401888-ce59-4d69-8ebf-48f1526ea870@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > "right of your wingtip" should be "right off your wingtip" :-) Which is why I think editors are such an excellent aid to writing. :} > We are in an area that is difficult to discuss via written word. My > technique and procedure is to show a 500fpm approach angle which is > nearly the same as glide slope for an ILS. The ONLY thing that changes > is airspeed on the approach. VASI and PAPI are all calibrated nearly > 500fpm regardless of speed. So, why not calibrate your eye to that > same angle? This doesn't sound right to me. Wouldn't the descent rate be dependent on airspeed if you're holding a constant glideslope? ... Alan  SignatureAlan Gerber PP-ASEL gerber AT panix DOT com > > > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > > > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > power you are adding. Pls correct me if I am wrong and any different > procedure to correct the situation other than going around Ballooning is always a result of reaching the runway with too much speed. Always. The textbooks will tell you to approach at the POH values, which some people are afraid of because they might stall and crash and burn, so they add speed on final. The textbooks will tell you to start the "round-out" at 15 to 30 feet above the pavement (round-out meaning that you get the power off and start the nose coming up to start bleeding off the speed) but most will hold the approach speed until they're a couple of feet above the runway and suddenly flare, getting a balloon because they're much too fast and the airplane still wants very much to fly, or they'll touch down three- point, or worse, they'll wheelbarrow along on the nosewheel. Maybe they'll get a porpoise going and break the airplane. Many, many landing accidents are cause by too much speed rather than too little. Dan On Sep 12, 1:36 pm, Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > > > > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Good Analysis. Thank you. While approching if we plan well controling air speed much easier than handling the ballon. When to round out and flare and power idle no body can exactly tell you for good landing it depends on situation. That experience we get only by practice. But controling the speed we always can plan a head of rounding. There is another factor which controls landing is wind and gust factor. It is better to add gust factor to the approch speed to control the airplane. > It is better to add gust > factor to the approch speed to control the airplane. Maybe half the gust factor, which in most cases is very little. Using less flap helps. Take the 172 up high, get it into a power-off glide at the POH approach speed, and as a target altitude approaches, start the round-out and see just how long it will maintain that target altitude as you keep bringing the nose up until the airplane stalls, and then see just how slowly the airplane drops in the stall (and how low the ASI is when it stalls). It might convince you that even the POH value is more than enough. As I said, almost all bad landings (aside from uncorrected crosswind landings) result from way too much speed on final, no round-out, flaring late, ballooning, porpoising from touching down nose-low, wheelbarrowing, skidding the tires with the brakes, or running off the runway. And the excess speed on final often comes from diving at the runway as the pilot realizes he's too high. This does not work one bit, since the speed gained by diving takes longer to bleed off in the flare (ground effect is in play, now) or in the fast rollout. In either case, a short runway can rapidly become too short. I'd be willing to bet that many more airplanes get bent, and people hurt, by too much speed on final rather than too little. Many pilots get all their training and experience at larger airports, then run into trouble when they go with the guys to a short country strip that has a good little restaurant nearby. Many pilots also run into trouble by not taking the obvious option: aborting a bad approach and going around and doing it right next time. Dan On Sep 14, 1:48 am, Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com wrote: > > It is better to add gust > > factor to the approch speed to control the airplane. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > trouble by not taking the obvious option: aborting a bad approach and > going around and doing it right next time. Dan, while ( fortunately ) I never bent an airplane I agree with your comments about being too fast on final. I had one instructor that insisted on 70 kts on final in a warrior, right up until the flare. Now we had a nice long runway and it sort of worked all right while he was in the plane ( hes a big guy, I'm only 160 pds). But on solo I had a bitch of a time trying to get the thing landed without floating half way down the runway. As I said in my earlier post 1.3 x VSo is fine, but just make sure you adjust for wt and not just take the POH figure which is at MTOW. As for diving to adjust for a high approach, the folly of that is very well discussed in Stick and Rudder ( Wolfgang Langerwieshe) which I would reccommend for any student pilot to read. Terry PPL Downunder > Dan, while ( fortunately ) I never bent an airplane I agree with your > comments about being too fast on final. I had one instructor that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > had a bitch of a time trying to get the thing landed without floating > half way down the runway. 70 knots on final is too high. You can get away with it if you're near maximum weight, but as you said, you'll float forever with a light load. When it's not gusty, I usually shoot for 63 knots. It gives you a decent flare, but you don't float much. ... Alan SignatureAlan Gerber PP-ASEL gerber AT panix DOT com > I'd be willing to bet that many more airplanes get bent, and >people hurt, by too much speed on final rather than too little. Yes, but when they have too little speed, the result is usually a stall/spin at the turn from base to final, or downwind to base. The results are not a bent airplane, but an augured in airplane and a dead pilot. I'm not supporting adding extra speed to the book values, just stating the differences between two slow and too fast. SignatureJim in NC > <Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > Jim in NC Very good discussion the subject. Thank you all. The magic numbers etc... I posted the procedure for a ideal condition like no or little cross wind condition. What if when we are in downdown, tower calls you and tell you two more airplanes are in final or base, extend your downwind. How do you react? I was told to wait utill Im abeam the airplane ( obviously the second or the one just before me in the final) then turn to base. Then do exactly how you do in the normal regular pattern. But it never worked me, it is spoiling my airspeed and altitude on final had to go around. I am a relatively new student. > What if when we are in downdown, tower calls you and tell you two more > airplanes are in final or base, extend your downwind. > How do you react? > I was told to wait utill Im abeam the airplane ( obviously the second > or the one just before me in the final) then turn to base. I think that's essentially good advice, although if the plane in front of me is full-stop I'll usually wait a bit longer than that to give them time to clear the runway. Most of the time at my home airport it's not up to me in this situation - the tower will say "extend, I'll call your base". > Then do exactly how you do in the normal regular pattern. > But it never worked me, it is spoiling my airspeed and altitude on > final had to go around. You'll definitely have to make some adjustments depending on how far you had to extend. I end up getting extended to 3 mile final pretty regularly and sometimes even further out. If you think about it, if you're normally flying a 1/2 mile wide pattern, when you make your power reduction you are 1.5 miles from touchdown. All else being equal it's always going to take you 1.5 miles to descend, so you should plan accordingly, while considering your airspeed or configuration may also be different from normal. I'm far from an expert, but IMHO there is a degree of "art" in making an "irregular" pattern work out since every situation is different. It's definitely something you can practice with your instructor - from short approaches to long straight-ins and everything inbetween, you should be able to figure out what you need to do to put the plane down on the spot you want. todd. > You'll definitely have to make some adjustments depending on > how far you had to extend. > I'm far from an expert, but IMHO there is a degree of "art" in making > an "irregular" pattern work out since every situation is different. > It's definitely something you can practice with your instructor Yep. It is seldom that things will be cookbook perfect with no extra factors to consider, unless you are learning out in the middle of a cornfield, with no other planes around. Your goal (O.P.) is to become proficient at flying an airplane, judging and taking all factors into account. Extending your final is one. Being asked to keep your speed up, as long as possible could be another one, or having to fly your pattern more slowly than normal, because you are following a much slower plane. Many more exist. > from short approaches to long straight-ins and everything inbetween, you > should be able to figure out what you need to do to put the plane down > on the spot you want. Yep. Learning a perfect pattern is one thing, and there is nothing wrong with learning that. IMHO, your instructor is doing you a disservice, if he/she is teaching you how to fly the airplane by numbers, rather than teaching you how to adjust everything to be at the correct configuration, altitude, attitude and speed at the necessary places, to have a good final outcome. You want to learn how to judge these things and become a real pilot. If everything was "fly by numbers" and nobody ever got in your way, you could program an autopilot to land the plane, and nobody would ever need a pilot. Learn to be a pilot, not an airplane driver, is what I'm trying to say, I guess. That will take some time, but the satisfaction will be worth it! SignatureJim in NC > I think that's essentially good advice, although if the plane in front > of me is full-stop I'll usually wait a bit longer than that to give > them time to clear the runway. Most of the time at my home airport > it's not up to me in this situation - the tower will say "extend, I'll > call your base". In my experience, that's the less-common situation. Usually, it's "cleared to land, number three". When that happens, it's time to turn when you're abeam the plane ahead of you. (Or at least to think about turning.) The "extend, I'll call your base" instruction is much rarer where I am, but it happens often enough. ... Alan SignatureAlan Gerber PP-ASEL gerber AT panix DOT com On Sep 12, 3:36 pm, Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com wrote: > Ballooning is always a result of reaching the runway with too > much speed. Always. Not always. Two other things may cause you to balloon. Wind gust will cause you to balloon. I have come down final plenty of times right at POH values and just as I begin my flare, stall horn going strong, wind will kick up making me float or balloon. In this case I MUST add power as I am starting to get behind the power curve. Thermals coming off a black and hot runway will also make you balloon. Summer time flying at 2 in the afternoon down this way, come across the numbers right at POH values and I will feel lifting action causing me to balloon. On Sep 12, 3:36 pm, Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com wrote: > Ballooning is always a result of reaching the runway with too > much speed. Always. Not always. Two other things may cause you to balloon. Wind gust will cause you to balloon. I have come down final plenty of times right at POH values and just as I begin my flare, stall horn going strong, wind will kick up making me float or balloon. In this case I MUST add power as I am starting to get behind the power curve. Thermals coming off a black and hot runway will also make you balloon. Summer time flying at 2 in the afternoon down this way, come across the numbers right at POH values and I will feel lifting action causing me to balloon. ----------------------------- Also a sudden misjudgment of your control pressure. > Just some basic comments.Procedure is OK but if you take a look at the > POH and see what the speeds are, it seems you are about 10 too high. I > was confused when you said to add power if you balloon? That will only > create more problems. I'm a little confused by that. My plane (a Flight Design CTWS) will end up slow and nose-high in a balloon. Not enough speed, time or altitude to get the nose down and make a safe landing, at least at my skill level. Adding some power while bringing the nose down will quickly give me 1.3 x stall and give me another shot. > I'm a little confused by that. My plane (a Flight > Design CTWS) will end up slow and nose-high in a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the nose down will quickly give me 1.3 x stall and > give me another shot. Depends on where in the process of ballooning, that you add the power. If you add it right as the ballooning starts, then you will maintain the already too high speed. If you wait a couple more milliseconds and the speed has decayed, and you are still nose high and coming down towards the runway, the speed will quickly get too slow, so you are going to need the power, at that point in your ballooned landing. I've been told that timing is everything. <g> SignatureJim in NC > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Comments are welcome. Well firstly it sounds like you have had one of those "wow I can do it moments" and captured how you achieved it , and good for you. I had a lot of trouble learning to land myself but the first thing about landings is that they are all different, and at least down my way you dont get too many no wind landings. There are quite a few differences between what you describe and what I was taught, but that doesnt mean either is wrong of course. And please note I am not an instructor so dont change anything without discussing it with one. Firstly you talk about setting the power then trimming for a rate of descent then setting speed. I am a little confused here. For a given power setting you can either set your rate of descent or your airspeed but not both. In my training rate of descent didnt come into it. You set power and adjust attitude to get airspeed, 75 on base, 65 on final. Then use power to control height to maintain aim point. I dont think I ever looked at the VSI during the landing phase. The key thing that was drummed into me was to remember the attitude. We dont start descending until we turn base, then we drop power to about 1500 -1700 rpm , wait for the speed to come down , hang out 20 degrees of flaps then lower the nose until the horizon approximately cuts half way up the windscreen and that gives me the approx 75 airspeed which I then fine tune with attitude. I am confidant that if I had an ASI failure using this half way up the windscreen attitude will get me down safely. It is also useful to have a good knowledge of what your stall speed is at the wt you are flying. Your stall speed flying solo in a 172 with an hours fuel will be quite a bit lower than when fully loaded, and you should adjust your speeds accordingly. My aim for approach is 1.3 x stall speed for your wt and configuration. then add half of any wind gust. Some instructors just insist on 65 on final and when you are at low wt you just dont need to be that fast and the tendency to float for ever can be really annoying ( even more so in a Warrior) Remember the stall speeds in the POH are quoted at MTOW. Do you know how to calculate it at a lower wt? Terry PPL Downdunder > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > doing 296 landings. > It works. Just works for perfect Landing-- no wind factor. > Comments are welcome. An addendum if I may please; One of the first things instructors should be teaching new student pilots when introducing landings is that there is no such thing as a standardized list of 1-2-3's when it comes to landings; actually to flying in general. You have said it yourself above when you added a no wind factor to your "perfect landing" scenario. There is seldom a no wind factor affecting a landing. Even if there were, the next approach to the same runway won't be the exact same wind factor. In flying, it's FLEXIBILITY,not rigidity that pilots need to learn to deal with. Remember that flying is an act performed in a constantly changing environment, and that what pilots have to learn how to do right from the beginning is to learn how to constantly adapt to this constantly changing environment. Seeking a one all fits all for operation in such an environment isn't necessarily the best approach to use. Rigidity has it's place in aviation, such as it exists for checklists etc, but to extend rigidity into a "perfect landing scenario" that works out for the pilot each time it's used would be something I would as an instructor, do all in my power to attempt to discourage a pilot from integrating into their early habit pattern development. I would advise you that even though it might appear your "perfect landing" scenario is working for you each time you use it, I would suggest to you that you are flying a much more flexible approach each time around the pattern than you realize. Don't mean to sound overly critical here; just some friendly advice. I know how hard some students work to get things just right for themselves. Hopefully I'll get you to rethink a bit and consider a slightly different approach to the issue. Best to you, and lots of luck with your flying. Dudley Henriques "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@rcn.com> wrote in message news:dd2e194f-e3da-44ae-87b3- mercy snip -> What a mouth full of crap. You should be writing for the Microsoft Help Desk. > "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What a mouth full of crap. You should be writing for the Microsoft Help > Desk. Mick Can you explain that comment? Would you care to put your professional reputation on the line here? Come on now.. the rubber hits the road. Please explain why that is crap? Dudley and I have had issues over the years but he is not a neophyte and certainly neither am I? How about you. Blow your horn as we have done over the years. What are your quals? Speak up. If you have something pertinent I'll certainly listen and learn. I did some of these posts to get some input from the broad spectrum of both students, and those who have graduated to more advanced ratings. Didn't do it to cause or create personal attacks but for an exchange of information and various points of view. Best Professional Regards Ol S&B > > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Best to you, and lots of luck with your flying. > Dudley Henriques Thank you Dudley for your input. You are absolutely right. I learned that lesson also but hard way. Fixed numbers does not work all the time. Situational awareness is the more important factor. Renton Municipal airport is my base airport. Based on wind condition ATC changes the runway. Those number work for only one direction if I use runway15 not for 33. > > > Here is the procedure to get excellent landing. I discovered it after > > > doing 296 landings. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Based on wind condition ATC changes the runway. Those number work for > only one direction if I use runway15 not for 33. Thanks for the reply. Glad to help. "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@rcn.com> wrote in message news:14783079-61aa-44b1-95b3- Thanks for the reply. Glad to help. --------------------------------------------- Almost like having a groupie, eh Dumley. |
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