What does it cost to own an airplane?
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Larry D. Cosby - 30 Jun 2009 04:01 GMT What are the real cost of operating a single engine airplane in today's economy? I've rented planes over the years since I've been a licensed pilot. (1976) . Would like to own my own, but wife says it cost too much in maintenance costs to own our own. I'm thinking along the lines of a Piper 180 of the mid to late 60's. A Cherokee 235 would be great for hauling the family, but it burns a lot of fuel. 15-17 GPH. Would rather stay below about 12 gallons an hour. Any ideas? Larry
vaughn - 30 Jun 2009 13:29 GMT > What are the real cost of operating a single engine airplane in today's > economy? I've rented planes over the years since I've been a licensed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hauling the family, but it burns a lot of fuel. 15-17 GPH. Would rather > stay below about 12 gallons an hour. Any ideas? Unless you fly very often (and perhaps not even then) renting is the cheapest way to fly. Like you, I would love to own an airplane, but I would rather spend my flying dollars actually flying.
Vaughn
Steve - 30 Jun 2009 15:07 GMT > What are the real cost of operating a single engine airplane in today's > economy? I've rented planes over the years since I've been a licensed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hauling the family, but it burns a lot of fuel. 15-17 GPH. Would rather > stay below about 12 gallons an hour. Any ideas? I was considering it briefly, but the fixed costs alone ruled it out, In my area, a covered tiedown will run $1200/yr. Insurance will vary, but for me and a fixed gear under 200hp was about $1500/yr. Add at least $1000/yr for an annual. That's at least $3700/yr to *have* an aircraft. The variable costs are directly related to the aircraft you buy, so you would have to figure that out.
I got into a club for $1200/yr dues and $100/hr wet tach time for 2 IFR 182s and a newer IFR 172. I would have to fly hundreds of hours a yr to justify buyng.
Ross - 30 Jun 2009 17:21 GMT >> What are the real cost of operating a single engine airplane in today's >> economy? I've rented planes over the years since I've been a licensed [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > and a newer IFR 172. I would have to fly hundreds of hours a yr to justify > buyng. I agree, you have to fly about 140 hours a year to justify a plane and a financial adviser will suggest that you rent rather than buy. But, there is something about going out to your hangar, opening the door, and seeing your airplane. No body else has flown it, left it messy or you cannot get on the schedule on that first nice day in three weeks because everyone has beat you to it. Priceless....
 Signature Regards, Ross C-172F 180HP Sold :( KSWI
Steve - 01 Jul 2009 03:13 GMT > I agree, you have to fly about 140 hours a year to justify a plane and a > financial adviser will suggest that you rent rather than buy. But, there > is something about going out to your hangar, opening the door, and seeing > your airplane. No body else has flown it, left it messy or you cannot get > on the schedule on that first nice day in three weeks because everyone has > beat you to it.
>Priceless.... It certainly is. Maybe someday, perhaps after I retire, I can justify it. Or rationalize it, anyway :-)
But a club like I have found, or better yet a small partnership can be the next best thing. Availability was the main thing I checked before considering this club. So far, it has not been a problem. We can schedule out as far as we want, and are allowed a 2 week trip once a year, and we can go to Mexico.
Paul H - 01 Jul 2009 21:25 GMT The main issue is the fixed cost of owning, which is heavily influenced by where you live, what airports and maintenance facilities you have accessible to you, and your own skills.
Hangar costs range from $50 to $1200/month. In most climates, having a hangar will in the long run pay for itself if not too expensive, with reduced wear and tear on the airplane while it's sitting around.
Insurance cost can be reduced by purchasing a lower cost plane, getting your hours up, and getting an instrument rating.
Maintenance cost is a little bit like hangar cost - airports with expensive hangars tend to have expensive shops.
So - if you can locate a small nontowered airport with reasonable hangar cost, a mechanic who is familiar with your type of plane and doesn't charge you $2500 just to open it up for the annual, and locate a clean older airframe, you CAN enjoy ownership. But you do have to have the resources to handle at least one major repair bill on a used airframe. For the pre-purchase inspection, search diligently for evidence of corrosion - this tends to be the biggest driver of major repair costs.
One other approach on purchase price is to look for airplanes with recent damage history. There's nothing wrong with these if they have been properly repaired, and many buyers will not touch them (the "virgin" complex) so they often sell for significantly less. You will also get less when you sell it, but if you buy a plane that you can live with for a number of years, the damage effect wears off over time.
BobR - 02 Jul 2009 16:56 GMT > > I agree, you have to fly about 140 hours a year to justify a plane and a > > financial adviser will suggest that you rent rather than buy. But, there [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > out as far as we want, and are allowed a 2 week trip once a year, and we can > go to Mexico. I was a member of one of the best and oldest clubs around. We have three very find aircraft and they were well maintained. The prices were very resonable for both the monthly dues and for flying costs. There was absolutely no way that I could cost justify owning my own plane based on the comparison to the club costs.
On the other hand, the flying club was at times the most frustrating thing that I have ever been involved with. I am a weekend flyer who doesn't have time because of work to fly during the week. I want the planes on the weekend or for vacations. I also don't want to have to plan every flight weeks in advance but would rather be able to go flying when I feel like it. If I wake up on Sat. morning and the weather looks great for the weekend, I tell my wife to pack an overnight bag and we GO! The flying club NEVER afforded me that opportunity. We had to schedule in advance and hope the weather would cooperate. If we waited too late, the planes would be booked and more often than not sit in the damn hangar the entire weekend without anyone flying them. I lost count of the number of times I would check the schedule and find all three planes booked only to go out to the airport and find one or all of them setting in the hangar cold and unflown.
So what is the best option? It all depends on your type of flying. If you want availability on a moments notice without having to be concerned with getting it back in time for someone else who had it booked but never shows, go with the club. The partnership can be a lot more attractive for scheduling purposes but will cost you more and you have to be cautious about who you partner with. Ownership will put ALL the costs on you and those can be expensive depending on many different circumstances.
Guess this might be one for the old "If you have to ask...you can't afford it." type of answer. Some sample expenses are hangar rent $175-350 per month depending on location. Insurance $1200-$unlimited depending on aircraft and amount of coverage. Annual inspections will depend on amount of work being performed but will start at $1500 and go up from there. Those are just the fixed type costs and don't include variables such a fuel and routine maintenance costs.
Ross - 02 Jul 2009 17:13 GMT >>> I agree, you have to fly about 140 hours a year to justify a plane and a >>> financial adviser will suggest that you rent rather than buy. But, there [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > go up from there. Those are just the fixed type costs and don't > include variables such a fuel and routine maintenance costs. I had a '65 Skyhawk with a O-360 turning a C/S prob. It was full IFR with a KLN-89B. OK, so it was old, but it did the job for my type of flying. My insurance was ~$690.00/yr, annual usually were around %500, but I did most of the grunt work. I did have the two MK 12D radios and audio panel R&R over a three year period and that was about $2000. One MK12D was upgraded to the D+., hangar was $205/month, but get a little closer to Dallas, and the price goes way up. So you can see, it really depends on location, and the type of flying you will be doing. I loved to have my plane ready and any time. But, I was fortunate at the time to be able to afford one outright. Kids out of college and a small inheritance helped.
 Signature Regards, Ross C-172F 180HP Sold :( KSWI
Orval Fairbairn - 02 Jul 2009 18:27 GMT In article <4025d844-330b-4517-a363-7a8597178ab0@e21g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> > > I agree, you have to fly about 140 hours a year to justify a plane and a > > > financial adviser will suggest that you rent rather than buy. But, there [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > go up from there. Those are just the fixed type costs and don't > include variables such a fuel and routine maintenance costs. BobR,
That wasn't the A&E Flying Club in Hawthorne, CA, was it? I was a member there in 1964-64. They had super rates -- and wet tach time -- no damn Hobbs!
At that time a Beech B-35 Bonanza was $9/hr, F-35 $10, Meyers 200A $12, C172 $7. Remember -- that was 45 years ago, but STILL super rates.
The club had scheduled, supervised maintenance, which all members were required to help perform.
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BobR - 02 Jul 2009 23:44 GMT On Jul 2, 12:27 pm, Orval Fairbairn <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> wrote:
> In article > <4025d844-330b-4517-a363-7a8597178...@e21g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Nope, it was the Southwest Flying Club out of Hooks Airport in Spring Tx (Houston). By the way, I would recommend the club to ANYONE interested in joining one of the better clubs around.
John T - 30 Jun 2009 15:56 GMT Larry,
I've owned in partnerships and rented. Renting would be cheaper than most forms of ownership, but they are really different products. When I rented, I was always having difficulty with access. I would want to take a 200 mile trip for the day, and someone would have already reserved the plane for just one hour, smack in the middle of the day. With renting, it's often hard to take the plane on a trip, unless you turn around and come right back.
We have owned a 1978 P28R (Arrow at 140 hr/year) as a partnership for 18 years and have kept close track of costs. We are at $80/hr wet and $750/mo for dues. We never have a cash call and there is no loan. Tie down is $50/mo, so this is not luxury, but we keep the plane up. A Cherokee 180 might be 20% less expensive to own.
Other partnerships will report lower costs, but unless they have minimal insurance or do the annuals themselves, they are more likely letting the plane depreciate while fooling themselves that they are flying on the cheap.
If you are pretty tight for money, stay away from owning a six cylinder. None of them are economical.
I would budget $12k-$20k per year total (100 hours flying) for the types of plane you mentioned, if you are the sole owner.
Finally, because fixed costs are so high, you've got to fly the heck out of the plane to bring the amortized hourly cost down. Unless you can tie flying into your job, the best way to do this is with a partnership.
Good luck!
-John
> What are the real cost of operating a single engine airplane in today's > economy? I've rented planes over the years since I've been a licensed pilot. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 12 gallons an hour. Any ideas? > Larry Ross - 30 Jun 2009 17:18 GMT > What are the real cost of operating a single engine airplane in today's > economy? I've rented planes over the years since I've been a licensed pilot. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 12 gallons an hour. Any ideas? > Larry OK, theses are rough numbers. I owned my plane outright and it was paid for. So not mortgage. I live in a small N TX town and hangars, when you can get in, were reasonable. Our airport also kept the fuel margin low so that helped. I did all annuals as owner assisted and learned everything inside and out of the aircraft. By regulation I changed my own oil and did minor work under the supervision of an A&P/IA. With that said, I calculated I spent roughly $7k-$8k per year to operate the plane. Oil, gas, hangar, insurance, etc. I flew about 60 hours a year. My mechanic is also a personal friend, however, very strict on maintainence. This is general. In 2001 it cost me a lot more due to the fact that I put in a factory OH Lyc O-360. That was not cheap. But, we did it our selves and cleaned up a lot of firewall forward mess. The plane was a '65 Skyhawk. Unfortunately, I wound up with a medical problem and had to sell it. I got my asking price. So for 12 years I had inexpensive flying. (all terms are relative) since I got more for it that I paid.
It will be higher if you live somewhere where you have to pay $500/month for a hangar, $6.00/gal for 100LL and you take your plane to a mechanic with the keys and say fix it or annual it, then be ready to pay.
 Signature Regards, Ross C-172F 180HP Sold :( KSWI
Frank Stutzman - 02 Jul 2009 18:30 GMT A sophistry I am currently using to justify owning the plane is to not figure in the costs of the hangar in the airplane costs.
The hangar is just a building that I store things, one of which is the plane. If I had to pay the going rate in my area for self-storage for my hangar then I would have to pay close to $4,000 a month (figured on a square foot basis). Now I happen to outright own my hangar (I do have to rent the ground for ~$300 a year), but if I was paying a 15 year mortgage on it I'd be paying something like $500 a month on the note. Soooo, by owning a hangar I am saving something like $3,500 a month.
Please don't bother to point out the fallicies here. This is my accounting and it doesn't seem that much more dubious than what I see a lot of hedge fund managers doing.
Besides, this is America. It doesn't matter how much you pay, what's important is how much you save.
 Signature Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Boise, ID
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