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Aviation Forum / General / Aviation / September 2008Heathrow crash
Hi, See the report into the Heathrow crash has concluded it was 'probably' fuel line icing? Seems a bit vague to me, slightly worrying a definite cause couldn't be found. Interested in what the big iron drivers on here thought? Cheers Andy > Hi, > > See the report into the Heathrow crash has concluded it was 'probably' > fuel line icing? Seems a bit vague to me, slightly worrying a definite > cause couldn't be found. Well, the evidence would have melted away. > Interested in what the big iron drivers on here thought? I've heard a lot of talk about this accident. this isn't the only 777 that has had thrust issues on approach after a long flight, but it's the only one who had both wind down at the same time. I've heard today that the report came out but I can't find it on the net. I'd be able to comment more fully if I had it to read. It isn't exactly fuel icing, but what's called waxing. The fuel gets very gooey near it's freezing point and doesn't flow so good when it gets into this state. A typical freezing point for fuel is around -39C and we have a temp gauge to tell us what the temp is in at least one of the wing tanks. Long flights in temps of as low as -70C can get the fuel that cold. Actually, the total temp including skin friction would be about 25 degrees higher than that. The main lines of defence, mechanically, at least, are that the hydraulic system radiators are in the fuel tanks. This keeps the hydraulics form cooking and also warms up the fuel a bit, and the engine oil is cooled by fuel through a heat exchanger. Older airplanes, like the older 737s and 727s, had fuel heat. This used bleed air for short periods of time, usually 30 seconds, and heated up the fuel in a big way. It had a failing in that if it got stuck on you had to shut down the engine. That happened to me twice in 727s, but it's no big deal and the shutdown is precautionary. For some reason they don't install the bleed air fuel heat on modern airplanes. I have no idea why, but it would definitely have saved that BA airplane. I wouldn't be surprised to find they're considering putting it back in. The BA flight was polar and very long, so the temps would have been very low. The crew would have certainly been monitoring the temps. they have f.ck all else to do on a long flight like that anyway, and if the temps were getting low, they would have probably requested a lower altitude, and/or increased the cruise speed to increase the TAT (total air temp) Bertie Power snip-> You can almost say more and explain less than your brother Dudley. But I'm sure you will keep trying. > Power snip-> > > You can almost say more and explain less than your brother Dudley. Well, obviously al above your head, but then making a paper airplane also falls into that category. > But I'm sure you will keep trying Yep. Forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Bertie Hi, > Well, the evidence would have melted away. :) Good point! > I've heard today that the report came out but I can't find it on the > net. I'd be able to comment more fully if I had it to read. It's still just another interim report I understand. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/G-YMMM%20Interim%20Report.pdf [snip interesting stuff] Thanks for that, always interesting to read about possible causes of things like this and whether any lessons can be learned. As you say, odd that there's no way of 'warming' the fuel should it become necessary. Cheers Andy > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > odd that there's no way of 'warming' the fuel should it become > necessary. Yeah, I found mainstream news reports on it after I posted that. They seem to be insisting it wasn't waxing, but actual ice in the fuel, which would be a very rare event. i have had it happen to me using Avgas. When 100LL came out first it had a habit of keeping water in suspension. I nearly came to grief, in fact, as did many others. that problem was solved with 100LL AFAIK, though. When I heard about the accident first I thought it might have been duff fuel they got in China, bu tI see no finger pointing in that direction. in some parts of the world the fuel is still pretty crude, being fairly wide cut. The engines sem to digest it with no problem, but fire hazards while fueling are greatly increased by them and I've often wondered if there are other risks. i have no idea what they refueled with in China or how carefully the fuel's quality is looked after. Bertie Hi, > Yeah, I found mainstream news reports on it after I posted that. They > seem to be insisting it wasn't waxing, but actual ice in the fuel, which [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > what they refueled with in China or how carefully the fuel's quality is > looked after. As you say, sounds odd. Hopefully the final report will shed a bit more light on things. Thanks for the info. Andy > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Andy You should be cross posting this sh.t to Andy, your hero is. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > You should be cross posting this sh.t to Andy, your hero is. Yes yes gibber boi. Bertie> Bertie the Bunyip schrieb: > Yeah, I found mainstream news reports on it after I posted that. They > seem to be insisting it wasn't waxing, but actual ice in the fuel, which [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > what they refueled with in China or how carefully the fuel's quality is > looked after. Blah blah blah > Bertie the Bunyip schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Blah blah blah Oh do tell, fjukktard. Bertie >> Bertie the Bunyip schrieb: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Bertie There ya go, get that cross posting sh.t going, dumb a.s. >>> Bertie the Bunyip schrieb: >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > There ya go, get that cross posting sh.t going, dumb a.s. Every time i respond to you. That's the way it works! I see a k00k and I share, maxie Bertie > Yeah, I found mainstream news reports on it after I posted that. They > seem to be insisting it wasn't waxing, but actual ice in the fuel, which > would be a very rare event. Ya got a link? i have had it happen to me using Avgas. When > 100LL came out first it had a habit of keeping water in suspension. I > nearly came to grief, in fact, as did many others. that problem was > solved with 100LL AFAIK, though. You forgot to begin this with "Once upon a time". When I heard about the accident first I > thought it might have been duff fuel they got in China, bu tI see no > finger pointing in that direction. in some parts of the world the fuel > is still pretty crude, being fairly wide cut. Got a link??? The engines sem to digest > it with no problem, but fire hazards while fueling are greatly increased > by them and I've often wondered if there are other risks. i have no idea > what they refueled with in China or how carefully the fuel's quality is > looked after. > > Bertie Sounds more like Bertshit. >> Yeah, I found mainstream news reports on it after I posted that. They >> seem to be insisting it wasn't waxing, but actual ice in the fuel, which >> would be a very rare event. > > Ya got a link? No fjukkktard. do your own research. > i have had it happen to me using Avgas. When >> 100LL came out first it had a habit of keeping water in suspension. I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Got a link??? Don't need one. I dind't look it up fjukkkwit. > The engines sem to digest >> it with no problem, but fire hazards while fueling are greatly increased [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Sounds more like Bertshit. To a halfwit like you, of course it does. Bertie Put up or shut up lamer. You pulled every bit of that, right out of your a.s. > Put up or shut up lamer. You pulled every bit of that, right out of your > a.s. Nope, I fly jets, therefore I know something about the subject, period. As for shutting up. never. Ever. Bertie >> Put up or shut up lamer. You pulled every bit of that, right out of your >> a.s. > > Nope, I fly jets, therefore I know something about the subject, Prove it, lamer. >>> Put up or shut up lamer. You pulled every bit of that, right out of >>> your a.s. >> >> Nope, I fly jets, therefore I know something about the subject, > > Prove it, lamer. Why? Bertie >> Prove it, lamer. > > Why? > > Bertie Cuz ya can't. >>> Prove it, lamer. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Cuz ya can't. Why would I care to? Bertie >>>> Prove it, lamer. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Why would I care to? You wouldn't, because you can't. >>>>> Prove it, lamer. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You wouldn't, because you can't. Yeh, it's obvious, isn't it fjukktard? You really got me on the ropes now. Whatever will I do? Bertie > Whatever will I do? > > Bertie Just keep lying, it's all you have ever had. >> Whatever will I do? >> >> Bertie > > Just keep lying, it's all you have ever had. Yeh, s'pose so. Remind me, k00k, what were those lies again? i forgot. bertie >> Just keep lying, it's all you have ever had. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > bertie More ant poison and chardonnay today? When you said you were a world class troll and pilot. >>> Just keep lying, it's all you have ever had. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > When you said you were a world class troll and pilot. Really? Where id I say I was a world class pilot? That must be just an assumption you made when you were dazzled by my brilliance. Of course, don't take much to dazzle a fuzzy witted turd like you. Bertie >>>> Just keep lying, it's all you have ever had. >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Bertie There ya go, just start lying again. >>>>> Just keep lying, it's all you have ever had. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > There ya go, just start lying again. Awww, dat so huwtfuw. Bertie Hail Eris! On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:25:30 +0000, Bertie the Bunyip frothed and foamed: >> "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Of course, don't take much to dazzle a fuzzy witted turd like you. Funny thing is, Maxipad's quite wrong. Bertie _is_ a world-class troll(er). Just ask a New Zealand politician...  Signature________________________________________________________________________ Hail Eris! mhm 29x21; TM#5 The God of Odd Statements Stupidity Takes Its Toll. Please Have Exact Change. Thread where outing begins: http://tinyurl.com/hojf8 George Pickett Memorial Award nominee <wfh_jr@hotmail.com> on outing personal contact info in x-poasted subject lines: "Plenty of people post under their real names and do not attempt to hide their contact info. You are scared of being 'outed' because you are a pathological abuser of usenet, and people rightly despise you for it. You're afraid of being reported to the authorities or, better, visited by a couple of guys with baseball bats. Other people don't have this obsessive fear. Ward Hardman himself has posted plenty of personal information - nothing that anyone else added was hidden in any way. You're so f.cking scared you've built up this whole sick mythology about different categories of bad dudes who 'out' scum like you. "Meanwhile you are the ugliest pigfucker in the universe. You are the coward without ethics. You call me a 'newbie' - ha! what an a.shole you are. Those who want to remain anonymous do so. There is absolutely no way you could identify me, not unless you had the sort of subpoena power that only gets turned on for big-time terrorists. That's because I chose to be anonymous. Some people don't. Only really stupid dicks like you choose the sort of semi-anonymity which leaves you in constant fear. "What a dickless wonder you are 'Snarky' you fat a.shole." -- in MID: <1156587081.123977.43800@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Lola Stonewall Riot <meow@popesnarky.argh> wrote in news:pan.2008.09.08.09.49.19.476584 @meow.disorg.flonk.discord.kookology.alexa.cameron.the.k00k.georgewbush. the.bobo: > Hail Eris! On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:25:30 +0000, Bertie the Bunyip frothed > and foamed: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Funny thing is, Maxipad's quite wrong. Bertie _is_ a world-class > troll(er). Just ask a New Zealand politician... Amongst others. Of course, i've never got an AUK award like Maxi...... Bertie >>> Put up or shut up lamer. You pulled every bit of that, right out of >>> your a.s. >> >> Nope, I fly jets, therefore I know something about the subject, > > Prove it, lamer. Easy, you're a shitbag, you like jay, jay liks you. Q.E.D Bertie > Easy, you're a shitbag, you like jay, jay liks you. > > Q.E.D > > Bertie Prove it lamer. >> Easy, you're a shitbag, you like jay, jay liks you. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Prove it lamer. Don't need to. Bertie > Don't need to. > > Bertie That's the difference between you and your brother Anthony. He will admit he isn't a pilot. >> Don't need to. >> >> Bertie > > That's the difference between you and your brother Anthony. He will > admit he isn't a pilot. No, actually he won't. I couldn't care less if you or anyone else thinks I'm a pilot Maxine. And your failure to grasp that as well as every other portion of my mastery of your tiny existence is what makes you so f.cking funny. Bertie > And your failure to grasp that as well as every other portion of my > mastery > of your tiny existence is what makes you so f.cking funny. > > Bertie You're the one that's funny dick head, you believe your OWN line of sh.t! >> And your failure to grasp that as well as every other portion of my >> mastery [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You're the one that's funny dick head, I know. > you believe your OWN line of sh.t! Yes, I do. Bertie Bertie the Bunyip schrieb: ... > I've heard today that the report came out but I can't find it on the > net. I'd be able to comment more fully if I had it to read. > > It isn't exactly fuel icing, but what's called waxing. The fuel gets ... Funny that you say that you haven't read the report (BTW intermediate, not final), but this doesn't stop you to explain in detail what has happened. Even more funny that despite your attitude you're completely wrong. It *was* icing. Read the report. Stefan <stefan@mus._INVALID_.ch> wrote in news:6fade$48c11b12$54497efa $17198@news.hispeed.ch: > Bertie the Bunyip schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > not final), but this doesn't stop you to explain in detail what has > happened. I dodn't explain in detail what hapened, fjukkwit. I explained the shortcomings of airliner fuel systems in general. > Even more funny that despite your attitude you're completely wrong. It > *was* icing. Read the report. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh6pZQX22CQ Bertie > Stefan <stefan@mus._INVALID_.ch> wrote in news:6fade$48c11b12$54497efa > $17198@news.hispeed.ch: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Bertie You don't explain anything, you just talk sh.t. Link is a dumb assed re-run, but a great example of you piss poor attitude. >> Stefan <stefan@mus._INVALID_.ch> wrote in >> news:6fade$48c11b12$54497efa $17198@news.hispeed.ch: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Link is a dumb assed re-run, but a great example of you piss poor > attitude. Thenkew. Bertie >> Bertie the Bunyip schrieb: >> ... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh6pZQX22CQ Succinctly put -- harden the f.ck up, "Stefan". Signature________________________________________________________________________ Hail Eris! Usenet Ruiner #5; Most Hated Usenetizen of All Time #13 Benedict Snodgrass Jr., Demon Prince of Absurdity; COOSN-029-06-71069 Official Chung Demon Top a.shole #3; Lits Slut #16; AUK Psycho & Felon #21 Gutter Chix0r #17; BowTie's Spuriously Accused Pedo Photographer #4 Parrot & Zombie #2; Anonymous Psycho Criminal #18 "Lola Stonewall Riot" is not part of my email addy. "For those of you without hope, we have rooms with color TV, cable and air conditioning" Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle Trainer of PorchMonkey4Life http://www.screedbomb.info/porchie/ Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2008 Hammer of Thor, July 2008 "Oftentimes people ask me, 'Why is it that you're so focused on helping the hungry and diseased in strange parts of the world?'" --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 18, 2008 Things We(TINW) Didn't Need To Know About Icebreaker, #5: "I expose myself all the time" Message-ID: <_S_9k.117$kw3.53@newsfe06.lga> "Hey Theophan, I need your help again. Will you please come assist me again? aggreen is after me again. He has been after me for a year and counting now. I want you to destroy his character for me. I can't do it." -- Olympiada: Not too proud to beg for help when it comes to character assassination, and Mistress of the Bleeding Obvious. MID: <45E22F00.5070103@yahoo.com> "I think we have taken care of the net.KKKopping in alt.gothic. Could all the kookologists trim alt.gothic from their headers and leave us alone now? It has gone on long enough. I can take care of myself in there from here on out. Thanks. I know how to fight off trolls now. Thank you for the education." -- Olympiada thinks she's had an education, and that means it's time for those nice kookologists to go away and leave her sandbox alone now, in MID: <45e330a8$0$16404$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Who booby-traps a dead end? That's just not right." -- Cordelia >> Are you the Peter J Ross that I've heard so much about? > > Probably. I'm the one who doesn't resort to forgery after losing an > argument. "You're the one with the extensive brain damage... okay I see. You're gonna be easily to own them." -- PorchMonkey4Life: Not aware of too many things. MID: <bf7xh.834$hH2.64@trnddc02> At last! See Joxer The Mity Monkey on camera! Watch him freak out!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_WuaENGqz0 "You're just mad that you got tard stomped again fagg0t. You throw something incredibly lame out there and I ramming it right back down your throat. And you wonder how I just did what I did to you. You wonder how I can make something so lame that you tossed out there so gosh darn amusing when I fling it back at ya. "Here's the secret: Unlike you, I am *not* retarded. You're tardness gets in your way every single time, fagboi. "Are you still crying over your keyboard, c0ckslurper? Is your mouth wide open and drool falling out. Is your chunky body convulsing as you think about how you were once again made a fool of? Are yellow boogie snots running out of your unnaturally large nose down your triple chins? "Look at what I reduced you too, tard.. I thoroughly enjoy owning and abusing you.. Thanks for being so tarded and so easy to beat." -- The PorchMonkey4Life has gone on to re-define red as yellow, black as white, and being run over by a truck as just a scratch. Message-ID: <kX3Nh.525$vI1.380@trnddc02> "And no, I did not have sex with my son. But if I did I certainly wouldn't tell you. Something so beautiful and precious should be kept private." -- Kathy L. Mosesian, or possibly not really her, confesses she may be a liar and committer of incest with her own son, in MID: <cfcd3f4660694e3afeaadaa2723e9ab1@msgid.frell.theremailer.net> The reporter asked Colin Powell (or George Bush), "What proof do you have that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?" He replied, "We kept the receipts." -- Bill Hicks Looney Maroon nominee for August 2006 Johnny D Wentzky foamed: "You never asked someone who goes into areas of the internet that are only for adults who has an underage id somehow or another if they are a cop posing as an underage person online? I guess lots of people just don't watch dateline or read stories much. Why don;t you go to pervertedjustice,com and see what they do. They are awash in their self-proclaimed glory after they lied to membners of the public. They are awash in their self-proclaimed glory after they posed as an underage person and agreed to do all sorts of sex acts wioth adult males, and they are adults posing as teenager themselves. They make themsleves into liars by falsely impersonating underage persons and by not fuilfilling the words they tell the victims online in their chats. Why don't you read it where they tell these victims of their deceit about how they have been with grown men and such? Why don't you read it where they say, "That would be cool." after someone makes an advance towards an adult who is posing as a teenager? And, where they agree to meet the person, etc. Lost control, didn't you? Is that why you feel as if you need to lie so much now? I see where lots of these false impersonation games are not sticking. They feel as if they can lie and then order the victims to get counseling in the gayblade, governmental, pro-choice tax leech counseling centers. They are doing nothing more than usury and fraud in many cases." -- Wentzky almost comes out of the closet as a pedo/ephebophile in MID: <H%%Eg.28916$Uq1.22411@bignews6.bellsouth.net> To Whom It May Concern: Michael J. Cranston attorney kook is a stalker >>> Bertie the Bunyip schrieb: >>> ... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Succinctly put -- harden the f.ck up, "Stefan". You are all wrong! the elastic band broke. Please get your facts right! D Bader (alias Gonad) |
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