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Aviation Forum / General / Soaring / February 2010oudie
Sorry, why should i buy a oudie for more than $300 when i can buy the same device for $100 Or can buy the HP310 with much more resolution and pixel like the oudie for less money a converter cable is the easiest thing in the world. Only need a max3232 converter from ebay for $10 works on HP310, MIO all the devices that have a TTL /RS232 serial... and will work for oudie too Thanks for your questions. Fact is that no one will be forced to buy the Oudie. Fact is also that you can indeed get similar devices for about 100$. But. Please note that we have waited for over a year that these 100$ devices would finally support all of the features SeeYou Mobile has to offer. It did not happen. There's a "but" with each device which you have mentioned. For example the HP 310 is . not supported . serial port doesn't work at 4800bps . not quite as bright as an AV8OR or Oudie . internal GPS has quite poor performance in circling . no portrait mode without KPR's drivers There's a "but" with each device we and our customers encountered. Agreed, Oudie is not the bleeding edge of technology as e.g. LX 8000 and it was never going to be. But it is a package which contains everything a glider pilot needs and connects easily to everything that is already in your cockpit: . 5" screen for those of us who can't read fine print anymore . portrait mode out of the box for those who like to navigate "track up" (which is most of us) . serial cable and power cable all-in-one is included (which works at all baude rates) . suction cup mount which can relatively easily be adapted to other fixed mounts, goosenecks etc. . supports all features of SeeYou Mobile (and ConnectMe) and even adds new ones . warrantied and supported by Naviter (have you ever tried to get an answer from HP/Navigon/Mio about their hardware?) It gives you all of the features of an LX 8000 at roughly 1/10 of the price (or 1/4 if you have to buy everything from the scratch including the vario) > a converter cable is the easiest thing in the world. Good for you :) I can assure you that some glider pilots out there can't say that quite as confidently as you can :) >max3232 converter from ebay for $10 works on HP310, MIO all the devices that have a TTL /RS232 serial.. Of course it does. But the pin layout is different between all the mentioned devices and you can add the AV8OR to that list as well. I can (unfortunately) assure you that HP 310 serial cable will not work with Oudie, AV8OR or Mio because each have a different philosophy inside. I'll say again that we did not want to create the Oudie but we felt like we have to because no one else would. Thank you for your interest :) Andrej Kolar -- glider pilots use http://www.naviter.com/ > Sorry, why should i buy a oudie for more than $300 when i can buy the > same device for $100 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > works on HP310, MIO all the devices that have a TTL /RS232 serial... > and will work for oudie too >>max3232 converter from ebay for $10 works on HP310, MIO all the devices >>that have a TTL /RS232 serial.. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with Oudie, AV8OR or Mio because each have a different philosophy > inside. Well, given the fact that a miniUSB has got 4 or 5 pins, and two of them are for rs232, there's no much space for combinations ;-) I also guess that the chinese people selling those cheap PNA at 100$ will also gladly tell their customers how the rs232 is working. The point is another.. is the Oudie really one of those cheap 100$ PNA, with an additional rs232+power cable?? paolo > >>max3232 converter from ebay for $10 works on HP310, MIO all the devices > >>that have a TTL /RS232 serial.. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > paolo So............an iPAQ 310, running XC Soar, and using an external antenna hopefully won't have the circling problems, as mentioned by Andrej?? Brad > > >>max3232 converter from ebay for $10 works on HP310, MIO all the devices > > >>that have a TTL /RS232 serial.. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Brad What circling problems? That one is new to me. It is a known problem of the 314 (310,312,316..) internal gps. It was made of course for car usage, and there are internal filters for speed and direction that try to "correct" possible position errors. So when you pull up entering a thermal, the gps thinks it is wrong and will often give a wrong position claiming you are going straight, and at the same altitude. It doesn't happen all the times, but it does happen. Personally this year I am going to use the 314 with an external gps vario connected through the rs232-power port. I may have one of those 100$ PNA from china too.. they look great and probably have cheap GPS that don't care much about predicting a possible position, and simply give us the right one ;-) On Feb 8, 8:48 am, Brad <apispi...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Feb 8, 7:23 am, "PCool" <coolwindnos...@nospam.email.it> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Brad What circling problems? That one is new to me. Paolo, Have a link to the $100.00 Chinese PNA's? Mike > Paolo, > > Have a link to the $100.00 Chinese PNA's? > > Mike Was this the note you had in mind? Brian W -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: I-Pad Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:34:46 -0600 asw22pilot@gmail.com wrote: . > Check this out... 4.3" display, integrated GPS, runs CE6. less than > $100 plus you can add a copy of XCSOAR for free. > > http://www.tootoomart.com/product-3069387-4.3 > > I know what I will be testing this summer. $90...hmmmm 600 MHz processor, tft display, built in gps.... Brian W > Paolo, > > Have a link to the $100.00 Chinese PNA's? > > Mike yeah, I am not going to use the iPAQ 310 if there are errors with the internal GPS............but, to answer my question: will an external ANTENNA help with this problem? thanks, Brad > > Paolo, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > thanks, > Brad Well if things behave as described this would all be done within the internal SiFRTitan chipset/software so adding an external GPS antenna would not affect this (the iPAQ 310 is mostly a single chip device with CPU, GPS processing, other I/O all on one chip). I have no idea how much of an issue this is in practice. With only a few tests with the iPAQ 310 I have not noticed it -- and my few iPAQ 310 tests were mostly been with an external GPS (CAI 302). But an old question revisited.... Do you mean an external GPS antenna - OR - an external bluetooth GPS mouse or serial GPS via an RS-232 level converter? For the later cases I have no idea what they will do, that is entirely at the discretion of the iPAQ 310 developers. However if I was designing this and felt that the on-board GPS ought to do filtering like this (but I'm not sure it should) then I'd probably want to apply the same filtering to any GPS source. Anybody done any better testing? Darryl > > > Paolo, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Darryl Darryl, I realized the antenna-vs-GPS mouse after sending the message. I have a GPS mouse that Mike and I will be adding to my panel goodies.what I plug in to that mouse might not be the 310 if there are "circling errors". Come to think of it, I did fly with my PDA/GPS rig in the Apis, and had the 310 running but sitting in my pocket, a post flight analysis did show some discrepancies between the 2 devices...........when the flight logs were played back. Damn...........and I just cut my new panel for the iPAQ 310. Brad > > > > Paolo, > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Brad That's OK you can make the hole bigger and install an Oudie :-) Darryl I think what all of you failed to realize is that most of us are not "pin-heads" and geeks and require $200 worth of ground school to learn how to turn the damn thing on without setting the cockpit on fire. Andrej is simply offering a service, I see no reason to tear into his a.s to show us how brillant one might be. What the hell is an "oudie"? R In article <e7f8d525-c539-45e9-8bf5-47a11464a02f@k18g2000prf.googlegroup s.com>, Darryl Ramm <darryl.ramm@gmail.com> writes >> > Paolo, >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >the iPAQ 310 I have not noticed it -- and my few iPAQ 310 tests were >mostly been with an external GPS (CAI 302). This sounds like an old story. 'Off-the-shelf' GPS engines usually will try to keep your track straight (especially if the signal is lost/weak as you turn), for a set period of time after you turn. An engine with maps designed for road navigation may even try to follow the nearest road. In an IGC approved Flight Recorder (such as the CAI302 mentioned above), this time constant has to be set to zero, so the problem does not arise. I am sure that Naviter know all about this, so I would expect the time constant to be zero in the Oudie. Caveat Emptor. > X-no-archive: yes > In article <e7f8d525-c539-45e9-8bf5-47a11464a...@k18g2000prf.googlegroup [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Caveat Emptor. Duh I failed on that. A NMEA stream coming into the iPAQ 310 from an external source has nothing to get filtered by (and why I never saw lagging effects with my few iPAQ 310 tests). Sorry I was blanking earlier. So Brad knock yourself out with the external GPS, it is unlikely it has a problem. Did you cut the hole for the Oudie yet? Darryl > > X-no-archive: yes > > In article <e7f8d525-c539-45e9-8bf5-47a11464a...@k18g2000prf.googlegroup [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Darryl Turns out that the "track smoothing" function in the HP 310 is an internal setting for he GPS chipset and not post-processing of the NMEA stream. Although the company that made the chipset was acquired by SIRF, the 310 chipset is a completely different family and, try as I might, I have been completely unsuccessful in finding anyone inside the organization that knows the chip command set. If we could find this out, track smoothing could be disabled. As many of us last year I have been flying with the 314 using the internal GPS. During straight flight position and altitude is plain correct as you would expect from any gps. During thermalling, it is sometimes wrong by 50-100m position, and altitude. It may simply result in no wind calculated (sometimes) during thermalling. Sometimes, not always! So if you want to build or buy an external cable rs232 to connect it to a flarm, to an external gps and vario: ok! Or you can perfectly live with the internal gps. No cables around, and it works fine overall. An alternative I wouldnt consider is an external BT gps. There are now external BT VARIO and GPS, and that's something one may consider. Paragliders use Flymaster F1 to feed vario and gps to their PNA and PDA. I am testing one of these devices from Digifly right now: sends out through bluetooth gps position, netto, vario, IAS , etc. I don't have external sensors, so I "only" get telemetry 5 times per seconds with the vario updating smoothly, and gps position once a second. Far enough for anybody. I don't believe that a 100$ device can be tuned by manufacturer (china) to fix speed filters internally. There are however tools software that can do it for Sirf chipsets. But again, I wouldnt risk to brick your oudie playing around with a gps chipset tuning software with no warranty! The beauty of PNA is that they can be used off the shelf with no cables around.. > Did you cut the hole for the Oudie yet? > > Darryl Heh, not yet................I'll see about using an external GPS engine, or I guess a blue-tooth.....not too excited about the blue- tooth, as it is one more gizmo in the gizmo chain. The iPAQ will be my only logging device as well; we have a pretty competitive local XC contest that runs all year and I really would hate to loose a trace due to a communication glitch. Plus, as Paolo says, the iPAQ 310 internal GPS is sufficient for general use and does output a file that OLC accepts, and scores as valid now. Andrej, can you add an integral audio vario and pitot for all us hang glider pilots? Dan > Thanks for your questions. Fact is that no one will be forced to buy > the Oudie. Fact is also that you can indeed get similar devices for [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] >> works on HP310, MIO all the devices that have a TTL /RS232 serial... >> and will work for oudie too Oudie is designed to be your moving map screen which connects perfectly to your hang gliding varios in order to get better data. Regards, Andrej -- glider pilots use http://www.naviter.com > Andrej, > can you add an integral audio vario and pitot for all us hang glider [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > >> works on HP310, MIO all the devices that have a TTL /RS232 serial... > >> and will work for oudie too > Oudie is designed to be your moving map screen which connects > perfectly to your hang gliding varios in order to get better data. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > glider pilots usehttp://www.naviter.com Dear Andrej, is the oudie hardware one of the cheap 100$ PNA from china? When not, what did you improve in the factory? > Dear Andrej, > > is the oudie hardware one of the cheap 100$ PNA from china? > When not, what did you improve in the factory? > I looked at it during the convention, and listened to Andrej's description of the effort it took to get a PNA that was optimized to running SeeYou Mobile in a glider. It sounded like a lot of effort. Previous posts have mentioned some problems you can have with standard PNA's, even from well known companies like HP. Oudie won't have these problems, and it also provides what no other PNA can: it works right out of the box. After trying help other pilots, I know that many pilots find getting an Ipaq, soaring software, turnpoint databases, sua files, cables, GPS, power supplies, etc, all working together is a daunting, time-consuming task. These pilots will be quite happy to pay for a complete unit that works immediately. If you can do all of that easily, and don't mind a likely less-than-optimum unit to save some money, you can probably spend less and have a satisfactory solution. Even though I can do all that (and have with my Ipaq), I'd rather spend more money and less time on my flight computer. I'm still thinking about the ClearNav (the version that will run Mobile with a touch screen) and Ultimate, but I'm seriously leaning towards Oudie.  SignatureEric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me) - "Transponders in Sailplanes" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm tinyurl.com/yg76qo9 - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz > I looked at it during the convention, and listened to Andrej's > description of the effort it took to get a PNA that was optimized to > running SeeYou Mobile in a glider. It sounded like a lot of effort. Did he explain how the name originated? "Oh You Die" seems like a strange name for a flight instrument. It must mean something more optimistic in his native language ;) Andy > > I looked at it during the convention, and listened to Andrej's > > description of the effort it took to get a PNA that was optimized to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Andy I thought it was a reference to Dr. Who ;-). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_monsters_and_aliens#Ood http://www.scifiscience.co.uk/img/drwho/Ood.jpg Hi Andy, At the SSA Convention I asked Andrej (or was it Roy?) how he pronounces Oudie and he said "Oh-Dee". Up until that point I had been pronouncing it like "Audi" (ow-dee). He said he didn't have a preference for the pronunciation - any way is fine with him. The "Oh-Dee" pronunciation reminds me of that cute little dog Odie from the Garfield comic strip. No matter how you pronounce it, the orders are rolling in! I'm very happy with the number of orders already received. It seems that many customers like the Oudie. The first hand impression of many customers at the SSA Convention was very positive as well. I will be flying with an Oudie. Best Regards, Paul Remde Cumulus Soaring, Inc. On Feb 10, 3:10 pm, Eric Greenwell <flyguy...@verizon.netto> wrote: > I looked at it during the convention, and listened to Andrej's > description of the effort it took to get a PNA that was optimized to > running SeeYou Mobile in a glider. It sounded like a lot of effort. Did he explain how the name originated? "Oh You Die" seems like a strange name for a flight instrument. It must mean something more optimistic in his native language ;) Andy > Hi Andy, > > At the SSA Convention I asked Andrej (or was it Roy?) how he pronounces > Oudie and he said "Oh-Dee". Dang. And here I thought it was pronouced "Weedee". I think I'm going to call it the "wedgie". -Evan Ludeman / T8 > > I looked at it during the convention, and listened to Andrej's > > description of the effort it took to get a PNA that was optimized to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Andy me thinks that a device such as a Clear Nav, which mounts "in" the panel would be called an "innie", therefore the "oudie" must be mounted outside the panel...........;) Brad Naviter's SeeYou, the LX8000 derived software, and the Oudie now, are all excellent products. I mean, whatever Naviter is doing, it is doing it at incredible quality levels. It is a good... example for all of us, developing software. So I am looking with special interest at these chinese PNAs, because they can also run the LK8000. Andrej knows what I mean :-) I 'd like to know if Andrej developed or partecipated the development of LX8000 . That's the most beautiful software (and hardware) one could dream of. paolo >> Dear Andrej, >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the ClearNav (the version that will run Mobile with a touch screen) and > Ultimate, but I'm seriously leaning towards Oudie. This is actually an interesting question: > is the Oudie hardware one of the cheap 100$ PNA from china? What makes a device cheap? Production in China? Hardly because all the non-cheap devices are also from China, India or Taiwan (don't take my word for it, look at the back of your favorite electronics toy). Does low production cost make a device cheap? Hardly because I can imagine that "non-cheap device" manufacturers like TomTom, Navigon, Mio, Garmin, Navman, you name it, get their hardware from China much cheaper than we do. Materials used for the housing could make a device feel cheap. If you are worried about the quality of Oudie's housing wait until you can hands-on preview the Oudie or ask someone who did it already. It will be possible to try them at the UK BGA Conference in March, at Aero Friedrichshafen in April or anytime if you stop by my house in Slovenia ;) Parts inside the device could make it "cheap" but Oudie has the latest processors, GPS chipsets, Bluetooth, 4GB internal memory, microSD card slot etc, no worries there. So what's left? Warranty for sure. You don't get any warranty for 100$. If it doesn't work you dump it and order a new one. The cost doubles (and the shipping too) and no one is warrantying that the next one will work. We will warrant the Oudies to be problem-free and if it is not we will take the due responsibilities. What really makes a device worth something is if it solves your problem and works the way you want it to work. If it follows your workflow and delivers what you need in a single package. Oudie aims at being able to do that and we will continuously be improving it in order to do exactly that. We've said this before and we will say it again. We didn't want to venture into the hadrware distribution market. It's much easier to simply sell registration keys online. We did it because no one else would create something that works out of the box for glider pilots. In addition to all this - we are in no way discontinuing any of our products. SeeYou Mobile will work on "cheap 100$ devices" as before. If you wish to save a few $, make the cables yourself, deal with hacking the device in order to run your favorite software - by all means go for it :) Cheers, Andrej Kolar -- glider pilots use http://www.naviter.com/ > > Oudie is designed to be your moving map screen which connects > > perfectly to your hang gliding varios in order to get better data. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > is the oudie hardware one of the cheap 100$ PNA from china? > When not, what did you improve in the factory? I like your style, Andrej! Best of luck to you in your new venture. -John > This is actually an interesting question: > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > > Regards, > > > Andrej Andrej: You are extremely tolerant of all the trolls and other naysayers. I also liked your response and may well buy an Oudie myself! Mike > Andrej: > > You are extremely tolerant of all the trolls and other naysayers. I > also liked your response and may well buy an Oudie myself! > > Mike I too find Andrej's posts informative, also......what can I say, I am a fellow Apis pilot as well! I hope not to have been relegated to the "troll" bin.............I think the Oudie is pretty cool also. I use XC Soar and would like to find a similar device! I'll mount it "outside" the panel........;) Brad >> Andrej: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Brad And if everyone supported their products as well the soaring world would be a better place. These days I have a simple instrument selection strategy - does LX make one? Yes - OK that was easy. If not , OK now I have to actually think. Keep it up Andrej. Bruce --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net --- Dear Andrej Thank you for anwering my troll questions. Well done ;) i like the oudie and i think you are doing a great job. I hope you designed the usb connector better than the normal usb mini conector. Could be a problem on the long run. Someone designed a very cool usb connector for the HP310 http://www.pna-einbau.de/ Andrej, I enjoyed playing with the Oudie at the SSA convention in Little Rock, and I know this was asked earlier but I never saw an answer. What the heck is an Oudie? Is it a made up term, or is there a story behind the name? Pete HP310 GPS static navigation Issues Hi. you should all read the review here and use the GPSViewer Application to programm the sirf chip http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/ipaq310.php Hi, Interesting. The review shows that there is a GPSViewer application in the My Device/Windows directory on the iPAQ 310. The program shows many GPS settings. I was able to run in on my iPAQ 310. But it is not clear to me how to setup the GPS so that the "circling issue" is not a problem. Also, I don't know whether the settings will be retained through a soft reset. But I think this may be what we are looking for. Does anyone what what settings to tweak to fix the GPS issues mentioned in the iPAQ 310? The review mentioned below shows screen captures of many of the GPS settings screens. Best Regards, Paul Remde > HP310 GPS static navigation Issues > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/ipaq310.php I made a flight in December and used my PDA/GPS rig and also brought along my iPAQ 310. Both running the same version of XC Soar; PDA version for PDA, PNA version for the 310. What I noticed was the PDA was much quicker to acquire the info to calculate the wind speed and direction; when this info displayed on the PDA screen, I would look to see if it also displayed on the 310 screen. Eventually I would see wind info on the 310, but there was definitely a lag. When I got home I downloaded both traces and overlaid them in Seeyou. The plan view showed some circles displayed on the PDA trace were not evident on the 310 trace. Then, I looked at the 3-d view and the missing circles were actually a series of wing-overs I did. I guess I am not to worried if the 310 doesn't grab wing over data, and the rest of the trace overlaid nicely on top of each other. Other than the slow wind data response, the 310 has everything I want/ need. And from talking with Paul R. if I add the FP module to my Tasman, I may end up with a better wind calculation method than the GPS driven method a-la the 310. That being said, I am keen to see if there can be an internal tweak to the 310 chipset. Brad > I made a flight in December and used my PDA/GPS rig and also brought > along my iPAQ 310. Both running the same version of XC Soar; PDA [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Brad Brad, What was the logging interval you set in XCSoar on the 310? Mike > > I made a flight in December and used my PDA/GPS rig and also brought > > along my iPAQ 310. Both running the same version of XC Soar; PDA [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Mike Mike, Time step cruise 5 s Time step circling 1 s both units have same settings. Brad |
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