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Aviation Forum / General / Ultralight / November 2009



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Jabiru vs Rotax

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VideoFlyer - 05 Aug 2003 20:57 GMT
The new Jabiru 3300 engine produces about 107 Hp at approx. 2750 rpm.    The
Rotax 912S produces about 95 Hp at 5500 rpm.  But with a gear reduction, the
prop speed is about 2200 rpm.  My question is this.  Why does a smaller engine
with less than half the diplacement (1350 cc) produce almost as much power as
the larger one with 3300 cc.  Does the gear reduction account for that much
increase in torque..or horsepower?  If so, why doesn't Jabiru do the same ..and
deliver 180-200 horsepower with 3300 cc displacement?

Dave
spektr - 05 Aug 2003 22:05 GMT
> The new Jabiru 3300 engine produces about 107 Hp at approx. 2750 rpm.    The
> Rotax 912S produces about 95 Hp at 5500 rpm.  But with a gear reduction, the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Dave
If you go to the books.
HP = Torque X  RPM

So it looks like the designers were after different things.
I'm sure that HP would go up on the Jabiru if they spin it
faster.  I thought 100 BHP/Liter was a good  benchmark for efficient
engines.  That would put the Jab at 330 Hp and the Rotax at 135.

Scott
greg - 06 Aug 2003 11:04 GMT
I don't think you can go past the Rotax 912, its a safe and reliable
engine that doesn't have any nasty surprises. The Jabiru engine still
needs alot of improvements before it can be in the same league as the
Rotax. The main problems being overheating and build-up of carbon which
has caused many Jabiru engine failures here in Australia and overseas,
also the head tensions and tappet settings must be done on time between
services to prevent serious problems.

The Rotax needs none of these adjustments done between services which
means more flying and less money sent.

--
greg
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -
Graham Lea - 06 Aug 2003 14:44 GMT
>I don't think you can go past the Rotax 912, its a safe and reliable
>engine that doesn't have any nasty surprises. The Jabiru engine still
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>also the head tensions and tappet settings must be done on time between
>services to prevent serious problems.

HUH??????????

Tell me what "overheating" are you referring to?
What do you mean by "carbon build up"???
How many "failures" have been caused by this *exactly* - seeing you
are making a statement of fact ? And "here" and "overseas"

You don't work for Rotax do you??

Back up your statements *now*.

>The Rotax needs none of these adjustments done between services which
>means more flying and less money sent.

Nor does the Jab motor.
This is  a bullshit statement.
You know *nothing* of the motor.

You *obviously* are not a L2 .

Nor have *any* idea of what a Jab motor does - or a 912 either for
that matter.

Go back to bed and dream more crap.

Let me tell you: The Jab motor is reliable, easy to maintiant cheap to
operate and has no known major problems. In that almost *all* motors
have *a* problem wiht *some* part of its operation, that is a big plus
for the Jab.

Frankly, I *think* that they are both good motors.

I know the Jab well and *think* that the 912 is also a good motor.
(But not any of the 2 strokes).

Here in Australia, the Jab is *good* because bits are available
ovenight from the makers.
And there are a lot of people who know about them and how to maintain
them.
peteleahylevel2 - 02 Nov 2009 10:03 GMT
I am a Level 2 , and a L.A.M.E, jabiru has alot of mod's to do to keep up
with Rotax 912, 90% of my work is on Jabiru and the same problems occur over
and over.. Valves, heads, coils studs, There cheap and nasty and they bite
when the pilot least expects,  Read the crash comic, manly consists of Jabiru
engines behaveing badly.. Rotax are very expensive however they rarely fail..
Most 2200 jab's dont get out of warranty without drama's..I know I have to
fix them. I'm not complaining they make me lots of cash...Graham lea is on
the right track !!!  

>>I don't think you can go past the Rotax 912, its a safe and reliable
>>engine that doesn't have any nasty surprises. The Jabiru engine still
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>And there are a lot of people who know about them and how to maintain
>them.
greg - 07 Aug 2003 10:50 GMT
Hi Richard,

No i don't work for Rotax, and I do agrea with you about the Rotax Two
strokes, like any Two stroke they will give you trouble if you don't
keep up the checks and cleaning of the pistons and heads etc.

With the overheating and cylinder head sealing problems, I'm sure if
you ask any LAME you will find the truth.

I got this off a UK ultralight website and it originates from the UK
air accident branch, Bulletins Oct 2002.  Ref no EW/G2002/06/13
Quote:

The engine was recovered to the AAIB at Farnborough for examination.

The engine was then progressively stripped. On initial examination it
was evident that the engine had completely seized. The number three
cylinder spark plug was damaged so the cylinder head was removed. Upon
removal of the cylinder head it was evident that a catastrophic failure
had occurred. The number three piston was completely destroyed and the
connecting rod was bent. Remains of the piston were still in the
cylinder between the head and the connecting rod (Figure 1 (jpg 95kb)).
The head of the number three exhaust valve was missing, and
subsequently retrieved from the oil sump. The valve stem from the
exhaust valve was stuck in its valve guide. The cylinder and the
cylinder head were extensively discoloured on the lower quarter
indicating several hours of 'blowing' (Figure 2 (jpg 95kb))). There was
also discoloration consistent with overheating around the rockers for
the inlet and exhaust valves on the number three cylinder.

The fins on the cylinder head were distorted indicative of overheating
and the head bolts were interfering with the cylinder head. Inspection
of the bores of the holes for the head bolts revealed deep indentations
from the threads of the bolts, normally these holes are clean with the
threaded portion in the cylinder. This showed that at some point the
distortion of the head from overheating allowed the bolts to interfere
with the head.

There you go Richard, if you research the air accidents branch and type
in Jabiru and read all the reports you will see that the truth is out
there, unless you think level 2 guys know more than the investigators
above, also check out the AUF magazine as there is always a jab engine
failure or two each issue. The above failure is very common, do some
research Richard.

--
greg
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -
rick.pitcher@verizon.net - 07 Aug 2003 16:39 GMT
> Hi Richard,
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> distortion of the head from overheating allowed the bolts to interfere
> with the head.

But you left off the "rest of the story" from that same report:
***************************************************************
"The ram air duct on the right-hand side of the engine, which supplies
cool air for the number three cylinder had been modified. The
modification was to add an orifice at the aft end of the duct, close to
the number three cylinder. The orifice was connected to a hose, which
then fed hot air from the engine into a cockpit heating system.
*
There is a modification available for the Jabiru 2200A ram air system to
improve cooling of the aft cylinders. This modification involves the
insertion of baffles to direct more air over the rear cylinders. This
had not been accomplished on this engine.
*
There have been two previous occurrences of Jabiru 2200 engine failures
due to sticking exhaust valves."
****************************************************************

The problem was due to the builder's modification of the ram air duct
and failure to install the required baffles. The Jabiru 3300 that I
bought has baffles installed at the factory. Looks like they've
addressed the problem.

Rick P.
greg - 08 Aug 2003 03:06 GMT
Thanks Rick

Sorry about not putting the rest of the report up, I didn't want to
fill heaps of pages, thats why i posted the source.

Thats great if they fixed that problem up, but they have had a lot of
problems with engine failures, as you would know if you read all the
reports from that UK site, and the incident and accident reports from
the AUF mags.

They can't be all from the that same problem you mentioned? Do you have
access to all the AUF mags? have a look through them.
They don't go into much detail, but its shows there is more than just
the problem you highlighted.

Greg

--
greg
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -
rick.pitcher@verizon.net - 08 Aug 2003 03:18 GMT
> Thanks Rick
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Greg

Actually, I didn't highlight the the problem, you did. I just
highlighted the fact that it was caused by the builder's modification of
the ram air duct, not the fault of the engine design.
BTW, I did read the rest of the reports on that page and didn't see any
Jabiru engine problems other than carb ice. Which ones did I miss?

Rick P.
Scrappman - 14 Aug 2003 03:06 GMT
>> Thanks Rick
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Rick P.

  Worst thing was,, we waited 6 weeks for a single rubber flange,,,,
enough cooling is a problem in a fully inclosed cowl...
                Scrappman
greg - 08 Aug 2003 12:21 GMT
I think you are right Rick, i might have seen the other reports on
another website. I will have a look

Read the answers to Chris Parry's question in the most used Jabiru
forum  http://www.voy.com/16193/4/

Don't worry about going to the Jabiru site, its controlled by jabiru.
No Info

--
greg
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -
peteleahylevel2 - 02 Nov 2009 10:11 GMT
If a 582 2stroke is maintained IAW the manufacturer's recomendations you
should get 1500hr of trouble free service. On the other hand a jabiru rarely
gets to 500hrs without major attn. So is the old 2 stroke that unreliable, It
last longer than a jabiru engine..( Its proven) Rotax 582 $5900 and a Jabiru
is $12000  I guess it comes down to more BANG for your buck!!

>Hi Richard,
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>greg
>- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -
Richard Lamb - 07 Aug 2003 07:47 GMT
My grandpa was a pretty smart fellow.
One thing he used to say is,
"If we all wanted the same things,
we'd all be chasing Grandma."
 
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